Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[oldmonkey]

Good point, judge.
We can all benefit from more practice.

We should also recognize there will always be considerable diversity in skill levels all across the board.

For example, at the SD mountain retreat this past summer I worked out next to a former NFL football player. Needless to say, my athleticism paled by comparison!

[Judge Pen]

Mike didn't tell mention that retreat, but I won't miss it this year.

[MC Taiji Hips]

I have to say...I was very excited when I first joined shaolin-do. And I will always give it credit as the stepping stone that helped jumpstart my interest in Kung Fu. While I was in SD, never once did I question its lineage or the material. It wasn't untill Meat Shake got me to come on the forum and see what was being said about it. I was shocked. Not because it what was being said, but because the points they were bringing up were very valid. The final straw was when I met up with a mantis practioner from the forum. He was very respectful regardless we had very little to show him. He is a 7 star practioner. Meat Shake and Him both knew penatrating hammer fist, but our version was completely different. But despite all the cool stuff I was learning (like crane, tiger, and mantis) I began to realize that there where absolutely no applications of my animal forms. I learned 14th White Crane from Senior Master Mullins. I was very impressed while I was there learning, but now that I look back on the videos of 14 & 15th White Crane, I find myself shaking my head. I'm not going into the details but if you really want to know PM me.

Regardless of what may be said about Shaolin-Do, it isn't the worst out there. I now belive that XMA should be the butt of all the criticism but there are still people who strongly resent SD.

SDers Here is my message to you:
If you enjoy doing Shaolin-Do good. If you feel something is missing, you could be right. Diff'rent strokes, Diff'rent folks.

[Golden Tiger]

Judge or oldmonkey, what SD mountian retreat are you refering to? That sounds like it would be very interesting and perhaps even fun.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by MC Taiji Hips
I have to say...I was very excited when I first joined shaolin-do. And I will always give it credit as the stepping stone that helped jumpstart my interest in Kung Fu. While I was in SD, never once did I question its lineage or the material. It wasn't untill Meat Shake got me to come on the forum and see what was being said about it. I was shocked. Not because it what was being said, but because the points they were bringing up were very valid. The final straw was when I met up with a mantis practioner from the forum. He was very respectful regardless we had very little to show him. He is a 7 star practioner. Meat Shake and Him both knew penatrating hammer fist, but our version was completely different. But despite all the cool stuff I was learning (like crane, tiger, and mantis) I began to realize that there where absolutely no applications of my animal forms. I learned 14th White Crane from Senior Master Mullins. I was very impressed while I was there learning, but now that I look back on the videos of 14 & 15th White Crane, I find myself shaking my head. I'm not going into the details but if you really want to know PM me.

Regardless of what may be said about Shaolin-Do, it isn't the worst out there. I now belive that XMA should be the butt of all the criticism but there are still people who strongly resent SD.

SDers Here is my message to you:
If you enjoy doing Shaolin-Do good. If you feel something is missing, you could be right. Diff'rent strokes, Diff'rent folks.

MCTH,

Let me ask you this: how long did you train in SD? In that time how many "extra" forms did you learn?

One of the biggest problems I have is that there are so many wonderful forms being offerered to SD students and they gobble them up without seeking the applications in them. In that way, I can totally understand the criticism of SD by former students like Meat Shake, CPA and you.

I am pleased with the applications in the animal forms that I know, but, then again, I've spent years practicing them and figuring out what applications are there and how they would work for me and my body type. My forms may look like sh1t, but I can fight from them.

GT,

There was a weekend retreat with Master Mullins and Master Grooms in the Smokies last year. When I get the details of the next retreat, I'll PM you or post it on the Mullins forum.

[MC Taiji Hips]

I was in it for close to a year, and I quit the day of my 3rd Brown test. I'd love to learn the applications to all the extras I learned.
And in all honesty, that was the deciding factor in my leaving SD.
I learned very little applications.
This is what all I learn outside the cirriculum:
1. 15th White Crane
2. Crazy Mad Drunk
3. 14th White Crane
4. 7,8,9 Snake PuaKua
5. the 1st road of shaolin double dagger

Its good that you learned how to defend yourself with the animal forms. I always wanted that, but never sparred animal. My class' sparring looked 2 shades better than the XMA sparring, which isn't saying much.

[MasterKiller]

Well, I can tell you what you are about to hear from most of the SD group. They will say it was YOUR responsibility to learn applications...to break the forms apart...to teach yourself how to use them.

My contention is that you are taking classes to learn kung fu. If you wanted to teach yourself, you might as well just buy a book and save yourself all the tuition.

The instructor is there to TEACH YOU; however, at a more advanced level, you will start to identify and understand new applications which you were not shown. This is the transition from student to practicioner. The only way to get there, though, is with proper instruction.

I'm not saying your instructor was bad, mind you. I just don't agree with that methodology.

[MC Taiji Hips]

My intructor usually only confused me. Giving me really far-fetched applictations. I had no previous martial experience before I joined Shaolin-Do, so I was still a rookie. Any application I came up with was either a) incredibily hard to apply b) just too fixed of a situation to apply. I know it may have been my fault, but even in my tiger forms I learned no applications. Its hard to dirive your own when nothing has been shown to you. I'll give it the benifit of the doubt, it was probably me, but then again if I had a better feel as what to do, I may have had stuck around.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Well, I can tell you what you are about to hear from most of the SD group. They will say it was YOUR responsibility to learn applications...to break the forms apart...to teach yourself how to use them.

My contention is that you are taking classes to learn kung fu. If you wanted to teach yourself, you might as well just buy a book and save yourself all the tuition.

The instructor is there to TEACH YOU; however, at a more advanced level, you will start to identify and understand new applications which you were not shown. This is the transition from student to practicioner. The only way to get there, though, is with proper instruction.

I'm not saying your instructor was bad, mind you. I just don't agree with that methodology.

Well MK it is the teachers responsibility to teach applications, but there is an analogy about a horse and some water that would also apply here. For the record I do teach applications when when I teach a rank advancement form. So does every instructor worth their salt. I don't teach every possible application, but I give them a couple to start the process and leave it to them to figure out the many variations on a move and its applications.

In MCTH's case he was a green sash with about a year's experience. He had more advanced/seminar material then he had material in the normal curriculim. To that point he would have learned approximately 20 chin na/self defense techniques; 9 one-step sparring excercises; 10 hand-to-had defense techniques; 1-30 short form; 1-20 sparring techniques; 1 basic staff form; One extremely basic "4-door" form; one basic Northern tiger form; One Tai Peng (giant bird) form which is actually only 1/3 of a complete Tai Peng form; one short stick form; and our Lo Han Chien (chuan) form. As far as forms he had more extra stuff than he had regular stuff.

I loathe extra seminar forms, especially when they are taught on the lower rank level. They are usually taught in a single day. Most people tape them and go back to review from the tape. Applications are almost never taught because there isn't time. This may be ok for an advanced student with the foundation to glean applications for themselves, but it is not for a lower rank. I disagree with the frequency that they are taught, but the counter-argument in SD is that it helps preserve the form and it keeps the instructor with a nice boost of income so they can keep teaching full time. Some schools do this more than others. I have only attended 2 seminars in my 14 years of practice.

BTW, of the extra forms he listed, I only have Crazy Mad Drunk and the first section of 14th Crane. My teacher taught those to me on his own and we discussed the applications during those lessons.

[MasterKiller]

Well MK it is the teachers responsibility to teach applications, but there is an analogy about a horse and some water that would also apply here.

The analogy only works if the horse already knows how to drink when the water is presented. If he has no knowledge of how to get the water into his mouth, let alone contract the muscles to get the water into his stomach, then he willl die of dehydration.

You could argue that drinking is instinct and comes naturally; however, Kung Fu is not. It must be learned.

I don't teach every possible application, but I give them a couple to start the process and leave it to them to figure out the many variations on a move and its applications.

I think most people teach this way. From the posts of some of your fellow SD'ers, though, *cough**themeecer**cough* it sounds like teachers in SD prefer to not teach any application, but would rather the student figure everything out on his own.

There is an anaolgy about not reinventing the wheel that applies here....

[MC Taiji Hips]

JP, are you an instructor? I'm through with the crane video I have, so if you like I'll let you have it. We just have to work out shipping. The video has SM Mullins doing 14th & 15th. The offers on the table,PM me if interested.

[Ralphie]

Hey JP,
Statements/questions for you: This is completely circular, as it's been talked about before, but it's something I've been thinking about and a common complaint for ex-sd people. That is, often SD explains describes the what and not the how. From a systemic view this is incomplete and in fact backwards (the cart b4 the horse ). For example, learning an animal form, and pulling apps from that form is going to be similar to how you do other forms/styles unless you know the particulars of that style, no? This is just a line of thought, but as you described earlier, most in SD fight the same weather they've been in 1 month or 5 years because they don't spend the time to figure certain things out. Isn't this because they don't really have the knowledge base to be creative with their apps?

The 5 element theory, if you've had a chance to study it, suggests that you learn basics/foundations then and they become habit, then you analyze them further and pick them apart, then they become instinct, and then you can start being creative and spontanous with them. I think this is real life logic, as how can you even know what to build muscle memory with if you don't know the foundational methods, theory etc. (unless your a KF genius *coughthemeecercough*)? Still within the 5 element theory, a form correlates to wood, or the creative part of the cycle. Really, it's the culmination of the other parts. This is a little simplistic, but is at the heart of most CMA I've seen. BTW, it's not unusual to pick apps from forms, but it is unusual to learn a style strictly from forms without the other elements involved (there are of course foundational forms that may just teach one "element"). Anyway, food for thought.

[oldmonkey]

MCTH,Masterkiller, and Judge,

It's a mystery, but my experience has been different. Application of techniques from the forms is constantly taught and emphasized...go figure.

There IS quite a bit of material to cover and it will take MANY years to refine even a fragment of it, if that is even possible. I studied TKD for 5 years (had a great experience with it), but did not learn nearly as many advanced techniques as I have learned with Shaolin. However, even with TKD, there were also advanced techniques that I never learned because I couldn't do them!

There is an interesting comparison to be made. When I studied TKD in the seventies, we always were criticized by karateka because of our high kicks and flying combinations. They were considered by some to be impractical and inefffective. For many of the fighters I trained with they were...the lesson for them was: keep your kicks low. But to the truly exceptional fighters, the techniques were awesome and deadly. Many of these fighters had trained all their lives.

I believe this is the crux of the matter. We have to train our bodies to move and perform before we can really apply the techniques. I have been shown applications of many techniques that I am still not skilled enough to perform.

My approach is simply to set realistic training goals for myself and keep practicing.

[Ralphie]

Old Monkey...questions for you out of curiousity:
What do you consider application of techniques from forms?
What do you consider advanced techniques?

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by Ralphie

The 5 element theory, if you've had a chance to study it, suggests that you learn basics/foundations then and they become habit, then you analyze them further and pick them apart, then they become instinct, and then you can start being creative and spontanous with them. I think this is real life logic, as how can you even know what to build muscle memory with if you don't know the foundational methods, theory etc. (unless your a KF genius *coughthemeecercough*)? Still within the 5 element theory, a form correlates to wood, or the creative part of the cycle. Really, it's the culmination of the other parts. This is a little simplistic, but is at the heart of most CMA I've seen. BTW, it's not unusual to pick apps from forms, but it is unusual to learn a style strictly from forms without the other elements involved (there are of course foundational forms that may just teach one "element"). Anyway, food for thought.

Ralphie,

I have studied the 5 element theory as its the basis for our Hsing-I and I have been taking those principles and applying them to my other material as well. Maybe you are right in some respects that the cart is before the horse, but I think that is due to some instrctors only showing students what works for them and not showing them a way to think about their material and make it their own.

My instructor's specialties are Tiger and Hsing-I. I've been working almost exclusively on Hsing-I now for over a year and a half and I am seeing a difference in my other material. My instructor says once you learn Hsing-I, everything becomes Hsing-I. That's an overstatement, but the logic and theory behind it has helped my other external material so it makes some sense.

Old Monkey, I know who you are now. I've visited your class with Mike.