Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[lunghushan]

Does Temple Kung Fu have a website????

Something happened with Temple Kung Fu around here. They split into a bunch of other schools.

You won't get anything off their website.

http://www.kungfutemple.com/

Basically I went there and for some reason joined even though it was some sort of contract. I think I signed up for 3 months -- I can't remember. They had only private lessons. They assigned me a younger guy as a teacher (which I didn't expect), and had me do basic stance work.

It seemed a waste of time, and there was no partner work at all, no drills, no forms, nothing, so I complained that they had none of those things and it wasn't good workout.

So next class he had me do everything lower. Basically thighs parallel to the ground. I explained I wanted some sort of aerobic workout or at least form work.

So next class he had me do some sort of taiji thing. He said it was very advanced. I have no idea.

Anyway, so I found some legal loophole in the contract. I can't remember what, and quit.

They hounded me, called me for weeks, so I called them back finally and had it out with them, and they still called me for weeks. That's what I mean by barely making it out alive. LOL

It could be something good -- I have no idea. It was just way too boring.

[lunghushan]

I watched your video list...the cheng man ching form is our 64 form we just do it slower in a very meditative way and with lower postures ( I'm sure he did too when he was younger).

Cheng was one of the last great tai chi masters...his chi level was very high.

The Jiang Baqua form is our entry level form...he only did one side of the sections shown- I posted the lineage for this in an earlier post. He has very nice form

The Dai Hsing I, I didn't like at all I agree with kung fu junky.....that much weight foward is asking for trouble.

the other Hsingi clips were really good...very close to what we do....I really liked Beng Quan - Wood

Adam Hsu always awesome

Once again I'm not trying to win you over to SD....we're just really good people and would rather share than throw s^^*%& at each other. Look around the threads we like to dicuss and learn not slam styles. we get enough of that on us.

Yeah, Dai Xingyi is pretty weird, I agree.

You know, after this posts, I totally do not believe the Shaolin-Do lineage story at all. What are the chances that Sin The learned all those forms, the same ones, in Indonesia from some hidden Shaolin lineage?

Zero. That's the chances. There's just no way at all. Those are not Shaolin forms at all. None of them.

Anyway, I won't judge your school, but I don't buy the story at all. There's just no way.

[kungfujunky]

and your basis for this assumption?

because you may not be able to learn that amount of material does not mean someone else couldnt.

i have posted about this before.

gmt knows this material. and knows it well. he did not learn this stuff from a book. his ability to teach it and answer questions about any little part basically shoots down the whole book theory people throw out there.

he did learn this material.

at worst i think ie chang ming may not have been 100% forthright about where he got the material from but it is cma and it is real.

[BM2]

Its funny because, I've been subject of, part of, or the actual person in 4 of the bigger rumors on this entire combined thread.

Originally Posted by lunghushan
What, are you saying you're the hairy guy in the photo?

[lunghushan]

and your basis for this assumption?

because you may not be able to learn that amount of material does not mean someone else couldnt.

i have posted about this before.

gmt knows this material. and knows it well. he did not learn this stuff from a book. his ability to teach it and answer questions about any little part basically shoots down the whole book theory people throw out there.

he did learn this material.

at worst i think ie chang ming may not have been 100% forthright about where he got the material from but it is cma and it is real.

Those are NOT Shaolin forms. You don't find it a little convenient that the Yang Taiji, from CMC, who MODIFIED the form and created his OWN version is the same version that you guys teach? That your form is the same as Jiang bagua? That's not Shaolin. Nothing on that list is Shaolin.

Anyway ... whatever. I'm not saying what you do is bad -- I have no idea. But I'm not buying the story of Sin The learning all of that in Indonesia as a Shaolin lineage. That's all.

[Golden Tiger]

If Shaolin-Do people are having fun at what they do and they like it, then who are we to criticize them?

Uhhhh....then why do you continue to?

Anyways, whatever. I won't waste any more time on this. If what you do works for you, then whatever.

Uhhhh...thats the second time you have said that. And yet.. You lack mental discipline grasshopper.

I've been to taiji schools. Yang Family taiji headquarters is in my town. I've been to xingyi schools. I've been to bagua schools. I've been to Hung Gar schools.

I think we should be training with you. You seem to have studied it all.

Sorry Lung, I am just in a playful mood this morning and you seem to provide a wealth of quotes.

[Golden Tiger]

Bagua:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icwEuTHsDKM

Very interesting. This is the first time I have seen the Classical form done by someone outside of SD. As was stated already, we do the form a tad different (same circle on both sides,level 1 training anyway, uniform number of steps between each circle, more defined movements) but other than that, I see very little difference.

Interesting indeed.

[Judge Pen]

Judge Pen, saw your Quan Do form on video. Congratulations. You did a nice job with a very difficult weapon. I used to practice that form with a homemade weapon made by an assistant instructor with a torch. It must have weighed forty pounds. I don't regret practicing that form. It makes you strong. I'm glad you enjoyed it.

But do you really think you could fight with that weapon based on that form? It seems to me a relevant question to this discussion.

It's a very relevant question (one that goes to the heart of TMA practice with traditional weapons). Now it's not like I would have a kwan dao laying around if I'm mugged nor do I expect to be in a live action recreation of Dynasty Warriors any-time soon, but yes I think I can take the techniques out of Kwan Dao and apply them.

Ideally, practing the Kwan Dao form builds strength and dexterity. It also teaches you to use the momentum of a larger weapon to keep flowing with it (you may or may not see that from my performance). Any long item that is heavier on one end could be used that way. Thus, the basic cuts and changes of direction could be applied in "real" situation.

The problem is no one practices weapon sparring to any degree. Not with spear, chani-whips, Kwand daos etc. You get some sword play, staff and short stick play, knife play, but these larger battlefield weapons are left to aestic forms and the occassional two-man set or contrived "fight routine" in most TMA training.

[Radhnoti]

If you look around, just a little, you'll be amazed at how many kuntao schools claim historic links to Shaolin.

I'd agree with whoever said shaolin-do is unlike today's kung-fu. I'd also agree with whoever said SD is shaolin that was changed as it passed through Indonesia, I'd also add that it was changed in the U.S. Keep in mind, a lot of shaolin-do higher ups I've heard talking about "respected" kung-fu call it "competition wushu", "flowery and pointless movement" or "communist chinese influenced". SD (and many kuntao styles) feel the kungfu that migrated to Indo-China kept the martial intent that was lost to styles physically closer to China's cultural revolution.

[Baqualin]

Those are NOT Shaolin forms. You don't find it a little convenient that the Yang Taiji, from CMC, who MODIFIED the form and created his OWN version is the same version that you guys teach? That your form is the same as Jiang bagua? That's not Shaolin. Nothing on that list is Shaolin.

Anyway ... whatever. I'm not saying what you do is bad -- I have no idea. But I'm not buying the story of Sin The learning all of that in Indonesia as a Shaolin lineage. That's all.

OK...no one is claiming that the Bagua...Tai Chi....Hsing I are Shaolin forms...Shaolin was and is the library of Alexandria of martial arts.....there were forms developed in the temple and outside of the temple.....I recently saw a youtube of the modern monks doing their Tai Chi....it was chen and it was obvious
AS far as the Cheng form I had a Chinese girl friend who for a few years lived in Taiwan and her boy friend was an older man who is a Tai Chi master.... he taught her the cheng form and called it 64 like we do....she also studied with a lady who was also a Tai Chi master and learned our sword form move for move. the point I making is that Cheng ( according to history) did his changes over here not in China and they called the form 64 Tai Chi in Taiwan not the Cheng form.....so the history there also has holes in it. It is also well known in our history that GMIe picked up other forms in his travels thru China and from his colleagues in Indonesia. It wasn't just GSM and GMIe, our forms came from a whole group of Chinese Martial artist's who were part of the same school, Ie was just the Grand Master who some are still living. Just recently a student of GMS's went to Indonesia with him, meet and filmed one of his colleague's....she believes! All true Masters have learned from more than one person. That's why it's Shaolin Do...the way of the Shaolin. We have a wealth of real Chinese forms and systems.....it's up to each student where we head with it and some of us do pretty well. We have nothing to hide come see us. It's nice to be able to trace the lineage of our forms....it makes them more real. Peace

[tattooedmonk]

I disagree. Hung gar's tiger/crane is not soft. The SD version does not look like a variation. It looks like the person does not fully understand it.

With kung fu, it doesn't matter if it works or not. I know that sounds crazy, but it is true. There is a lot of bad kung fu. What I mean by bad is that I feel that style is useless. However, it is kung fu. My opinion is that a lot kung fu styles don't work. SD may or may not work, but just because it works well does not make it kung fu.

Long ago, SD might of had a Chinese base (I strongly doubt it). HOWEVER, it is not kung fu now

I believe that tiger crane is a hard style ..but most of the people I have seen do not do it that way...it was just a comparison to Sd.

Kung fu just means time and effort or hard work...it is misused to describe chinese arts

[BlueTravesty]

If you look around, just a little, you'll be amazed at how many kuntao schools claim historic links to Shaolin.

I'd agree with whoever said shaolin-do is unlike today's kung-fu. I'd also agree with whoever said SD is shaolin that was changed as it passed through Indonesia, I'd also add that it was changed in the U.S. Keep in mind, a lot of shaolin-do higher ups I've heard talking about "respected" kung-fu call it "competition wushu", "flowery and pointless movement" or "communist chinese influenced". SD (and many kuntao styles) feel the kungfu that migrated to Indo-China kept the martial intent that was lost to styles physically closer to China's cultural revolution.

Really? I think the biggest impact that CMA have suffered- as far as intent goes anyway- was probably when foreigners started carving China up into "Spheres of Influence." In confrontations against the guns of the Europeans (particularly during the Boxer Rebellion) many a martial artist discovered that no technique can make one bulletproof (in the case of the Yi Ho Chuan, they learned that the hard way.) Needless to say, this happened a LONG time before the cultural revolution.

As I've pointed out before, a LOT if not most Kung Fu lineages go back to Taiwan (mostly Long Fist, Praying Mantis, Baji, Pigua, Taiji, Bagua, etc.) or Hong Kong (Hung Gar, Wing Chun, more Praying Mantis, MyJhong, etc.) Taiwan has little-to-nothing to do with Modern Wushu, as the old wounds are still too deep. Hong Kong's participation in Modern Wushu is VERY recent, as Hong Kong only got a team together a few years ago. The only non-Wushu lineages I've heard of coming to America directly from the mainland was one particular Choy Lee Fut branch I read about, though I can't remember the name of it. However, anyone who has seen CLF will see more similarities to San Shou than Modern Wushu So like Kuntao, claims to these systems being Wushu-influenced can only come from the occasional practitioner of them who might also dabble in Wushu.

[godzillakungfu]

Originally Posted by lunghushan
What, are you saying you're the hairy guy in the photo?

I like how you found the two quotes but, missed my response.

[godzillakungfu]

Very interesting. This is the first time I have seen the Classical form done by someone outside of SD. As was stated already, we do the form a tad different (same circle on both sides,level 1 training anyway, uniform number of steps between each circle, more defined movements) but other than that, I see very little difference.

Interesting indeed.

Wow, this gentleman is very interesting. I'm surprised you haven't researched him GT. We have a few forms that are very close to his in Hsing-I and Bagua.

[Radhnoti]

BT, I was just giving my impression of what SDers think of a lot of kungfu. In SD a GREAT DEAL of weight is given to the expected effectiveness of what's being taught. (If you'll forgive me, I'll repeat my mantra for this thread here: Like in a LOT of kuntao schools.) I suspect shaolin-do DID change in Indonesia and perhaps as much in the U.S. It's my opinion that it's not kungfu...after all, the styles you mentioned have ended up defining that word and SD isn't any of those. It IS my opinion that SD is historically linked to shaolin...
I don't think SDers get upset about people not believing SD is kungfu, I think they get upset when people assume they have no legit link to China. GM The's family is CHINESE and Chinese people who lived in Indonesia stuck with the OTHER Chinese immigrants in small communities. It's silly for people to assume he learned karate when it's relatively certain he'd have had access to people with Chinese martial art backgrounds.