Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Baqualin]

Sorry about that. Shows how far out of the games loop I am. And of course I would still take you in and teach you everything you might have missed out on. I personally feel that I have learned a lot from SD, granted most was back in the day, and if you feel you didn't, I would have no problem catching you up so to speak. And not for the sake of SD's name, but because I feel every student deserves the best we have to offer.

Your a good person GT!!

[Royal Dragon]

WS,
I am going to hunt you down, drag ur punie behind out into the strteet and beat you with in an inch of your life before ripping your head off and peeing down ur neck!!!

[Radhnoti]

Are you doing that to impress that Russian chick that wants you to send her money so she can afford a visa and a plane ticket to come visit you? You sly dog.

[The Willow Sword]

LOL at RD. haha did you call her your little Suka like i suggested? hehe i dont blame you for being pi$$ed at me so i can take that threat with a grain of salt SUKA in Russian means "B!tch"

Oh and TTM i am not "threatened" by your Threats. not in the least. just letting you know that if you are going to have it out with me on this forum, lets just keep it to "hey a$$hole you are a tool" and not " i can arrange to punch you in your face".

Peace,TWS

[Flaca]

Whatever happened to the Chinese martial arts concept of - one master and one grandmaster???? 40 or so masters????? Dont know....

40 or so masters throughout the states. I have one master (6th black), he is the only master in TX. There can be only one.... grandmaster.

[BM2]

Let's just say that given your form and stuff is exactly the same as his leads to a high probability that it was copied from a book.

Yeah, it is missing from some library in KY. Sorry TWS

[lunghushan]

Okay, so I wasn't going to post this, but after the book discussion, seemed like you Shaolin-Do people might want to see this book:

http://www.ikungfu.net/Level-Elbow.htm

Seems 'Golden Leopard' is a Choy Li Fut form.

JP, if you want to know about 'unicorn stepping', you might want to just Google it.

I don't think people on here would believe anything I said about it anyway.

[sunfist]

Ok people, logic lesson:

Human perception itself is subjective, Descarte said 'I think, therefore I am', but even that simple statement makes one assumption, that he does indeed think. Does the sun rise in the morning? Thats the message that your eyes give you, so we could say its probable. It is also a possibility that the sun does not infact rise in the morning, but comes out every night, and all our sensory input deceives us of this.

Even so, you will find few people hanging their wet clothes out from midnight to 5AM in the hope that they will dry more efficiently, and of those few who are, who can say how many are doing so from the courtyard of a mental institution. You might argue that empirical testing would reveal that our clothes do not dry as efficiently under such circumstances, thus disproving the theory, but you are again relying on sensory input which may be faulty. The theory can simply not be disproven, nor can any theory. This relates back to inductive reasoning, which was mentioned earlier in the thread.

It is indeed possible that shaolin do is real, however we may also say that it is not probable. I think even its exponents know this, either openly or deep down. All we are debating here is semantics, the exact probability of it being true, and we all know that probability to be waaaaay below 50%

If you really, really want to beat the point of historical (in)accuracy into the ground, then we can employ occams razor and arrive at the conclusion that the simplest theory, and therefore the most likely to be correct, is that shaolin do is a modern style synthesised from a wide variety of existing MA, and from questionable sources. To those who would argue, I ask where is your clear and concise critical thinking, what methodology have you used to arrive at this conclusion? Good luck drying your Gi at midnight.

That, however, is only one of two core issues being addressed here. If shaolin do promotes growth in its students, both martial and otherwise, does it not stand upon its own merit? I think the answer is yes with two 'but's. If you want to practice your version of a style, do so, but make it clear that it is your version of the style. If SD constantly referred to their stuff as a different but related entity that can in no way be compared to the other lineages of it, people will be a lot less concerned. It is the strong implication that you can learn bagua as it would be taught in a dedicated bagua school, hang gar as in a dedicated hung gar school and so on that cheeses so many people off so much.

This brings me neatly to my second point: the habitual arrogance. Afer the irony wears off this is simply irritating. If I wanted to get all freudian we could say its a projection of inner insecurity, but lets not go there.

http://www.shaolin-do.com/ reads 'the most comprehensive martial art in the world'

http://www.kingsport-shaolin.com/ reads "Shao-Lin Kung Fu is the martial arts against which all other martial arts are measured!" and '#1 Fighting Style in the World!'

This all combines to produce an effect not unlike your cousin bob who learnt krotty and is better than you because of it. Nobody likes cousin bob, regardless of how kicking rad his krotty is, and no amount of abuse or lamentation will change that.

[Invincible Yang]

The book of JRJ's original form by Joseph Crandall follows shaolindo's almost to the letter. But Gms was teaching this form before this book or Jaj's book Classical Pa Kua chang were even published. Anyone interested in more media on Jrj's pa ku, and hsing i should check out chiflow.com.

[Judge Pen]

Okay, so I wasn't going to post this, but after the book discussion, seemed like you Shaolin-Do people might want to see this book:

http://www.ikungfu.net/Level-Elbow.htm

Seems 'Golden Leopard' is a Choy Li Fut form.

JP, if you want to know about 'unicorn stepping', you might want to just Google it.

I don't think people on here would believe anything I said about it anyway.

I did google it. No examples or real descriptions--just references.

Ok, CLF has a golden leopard form--doesn't mean its ours. Guess what, we have golden tiger, black tiger, white crane etc. Generic animal names are common in CMA. I'd like to see the book in more detain and compare it to what I've been taught. Oh, we are being taught 4 GL forms, not just one prior to CLF's Bai Mao form.... I wonder what branch of CLF this is anyway...

BTW, I thought you were "done" with this thread?

[Yao Sing]

Oh and TTM i am not "threatened" by your Threats. not in the least. just letting you know that if you are going to have it out with me on this forum, lets just keep it to "hey a$$hole you are a tool" and not " i can arrange to punch you in your face".

Peace,TWS

Well, we all know there's at least one guy here that's proven to not back down from a fight (regardless of skill level).

[Golden Tiger]

Ok people, logic lesson:

Looks like someone has completed their first week of Intro to logic 101...

It is indeed possible that shaolin do is real, however we may also say that it is not probable.

Since you have not defined the parameters of "real", then your points don't have merit. Shall we move over to the Socratic method perhaps to help you along?

If you really, really want to beat the point of historical (in)accuracy into the ground, then we can employ occams razor and arrive at the conclusion that the simplest theory, and therefore the most likely to be correct, is that shaolin do is a modern style synthesised from a wide variety of existing MA, and from questionable sources.

In order to test any theory, especially Occams (which is more of a lazy persons way of testing it), you must present a null hypothesis (which you haven't) and then be able to prove or disprove it (which by the way, you have done neither).

The theory can simply not be disproven, nor can any theory.

By that "logic", every theory would be by default true and provable. You are now mixings philosophy with logic. Be consistant.

It is the strong implication that you can learn bagua as it would be taught in a dedicated bagua school, hang gar as in a dedicated hung gar school and so on that cheeses so many people off so much.

But #1. You have not provided any proof, imperical or otherwise, that the SD material and method of teaching such is not as good as that of a dedicated school.

This brings me neatly to my second point: the habitual arrogance.

Sorta like your uppitty "logical" foo foo don't you think?

Nobody likes cousin bob, regardless of how kicking rad his krotty is, and no amount of abuse or lamentation will change that.

Well, I would imagine as long as uncle bob can kick your a$$ from here to Occams house, he doesnt really care if you like his kong foo krotty or not.

[Radhnoti]

sunfist, I really liked your post. I agree with your contention of "habitual arrogance", but would suggest that self promotion is necessary in advertising. If you look at martial arts as a business, it's not good business to make your competitors happy. So, yes, you and I both think the advertising is over the top...and the school owner who GETS the student because of that advertising probably could care less.

The other issue I'd bring up is "real". Real is a far more subjective word when you're talkin' shaolin then your post implied. The only link shaolin-do claims to have to "Shaolin" is historic...as far as I know. Careful martial consumers, who actually care if they're getting taught the same stuff that's being taught at Shaolin temple NOW, will probably notice the -do. It's hard, in my opinion, to criticize Sin The' using the name "shaolin-do" when you consider he was using it before most in the U.S. had even heard the word.

[Radhnoti]

GT posted while I was typing.

I liked sunfists post...at least I liked that he was attempting to make points better than, "It's not real because it's not like mine!", or "You wear gis!" I suppose I liked the tone best, an actual attempt at logical reasons for disagreement is worthy of well reasoned response.
GT's "uppity logical foo foo" line did crack me up though...

[BM2]

[QUOTE=sunfist;705824]Ok people, logic lesson:

http://www.kingsport-shaolin.com/ reads "Shao-Lin Kung Fu is the martial arts against which all other martial arts are measured!" and '#1 Fighting Style in the World!'

QUOTE]


As difficult as this may be for you to believe, given your only insight of SD is through your limited PC screen sensors, Master Sin (I dislike using someone's name without their permission however it is used, sorry GMT) is a very humble man and has tried to instill that in his students. He is not a web master and did not create those sites. It appears he just teaches and does not provide input into web sites.
FWIW, I do not care for those quotes, although I'm certain that you would also find something else to be "offended" by if they were removed.