Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Shaolin-Drunk]

I loathe extra seminar forms, especially when they are taught on the lower rank level. They are usually taught in a single day. Most people tape them and go back to review from the tape. Applications are almost never taught because there isn't time. This may be ok for an advanced student with the foundation to glean applications for themselves, but it is not for a lower rank. I disagree with the frequency that they are taught, but the counter-argument in SD is that it helps preserve the form and it keeps the instructor with a nice boost of income so they can keep teaching full time. Some schools do this more than others. I have only attended 2 seminars in my 14 years of practice.

This gets really bad because I noticed that the instructors would give and charge for seminars on forms that you would get in the black belt classes. Sometimes I think these guys are in it just for lots of money.. There is a Master down here in texas that gave a seminar in Kentucky about how to boost income for your kwoon..
So he was charging money, for a seminar on how to give more seminars? Please..

[themeecer]

There is a Master down here in texas that gave a seminar in Kentucky about how to boost income for your kwoon..
So he was charging money, for a seminar on how to give more seminars? Please..

That master in Texas is a wonderful person and a very good businessman. He was able to go from 0 students to 600 in about 10 years. This was a very needed seminar, many schools here can hardly pay their bills much less turn a profit. If our teachers can't pay their bills than they can no longer keep on teaching. Also topics of professionalism was to be broached at this seminar and how to treat your students so they keep coming back. If this is a bad thing then I guess I am a bad person, because I think this is very important.

Edit: In response to the personal attacks on myself in this thread. It is not that I am a master or call myself that ... it is just that you suck so bad in comparision you make me look like a master. In all seriousness, if you can't figure out your own applications after decades of practice then maybe the MA aren't your cup of tea. Yes I am given and also give out applications, but my core emphasis is to allow the student cater their SD experience to their own bodies and strengths. You aparently don't like that ... and I couldn't give a flying flip that you don't.

[mantis7]

I am not trying to be a jerk but first off the entire white eyebrow at black sash?

Bak mei first off is a very secretive style

secondly its hard to find a Sifu who is competent in it

thirdly their are over 40 forms in one family and maybe more in others...

do they teach you the ging needed to apply bak mei?

penetrating inch force?

reverse breathing?

or any concept that would define it as Bak mei?

Bak mei has a paticular flavor and movment. DO they teach you the neccessary concepts

And just to note... I have seen Shaolin do.. I was based at Ft knox Kentucky. I have friends that have tried and or trained in the system. I know the mantis they have learned from the teachers do not comply with mantis principles. The forms, some are legit, but they are exactlly like the mantis from several popular series out as well as one being from a well known school but I am sure they do not know that the form is a clan fist set and not a traditional mantis set.

How do I know this.. well the form is from One of my Sifu's tape series. Sifu Raul Ortiz has a series out but almost all the forms are clan set. thats how I know that paticular form was learned from a video cassette and I am assuming white ape exits cave is from the John Funk series or maybe from LKW book. I am not trying to be a jerk but I am just trying to shed light on the origins of the forms you are learning. It is one thing to learn a form and there is no harm in that. But to learn a system and to say you are a practioner or Mantis stylist or Bak mei student you must have the core concepts, stratergy, ideaology and theory to truly say you are doing what you say you are doing. If this is not true then all the person is doing is playing forms.

Cheers
Victor

[cerebus]

BINGO, mantis7 is a winnah! I have to tell you though, themeecer won't listen to anything anyone has to say which may cast doubt upon the origins or authenticity of Shaolin-Do. If his previous posts are any indication, he just doesn't want to know.

[themeecer]

Not the case Cerubus. All this Mantis stuff is new seminar stuff .. which means I don't know it. I only have the older stuff that was taught out 20 years ago. So there is no way I can reply to his post because I know nothing of it. I have read where some mantis guys, on here, were very interested in one or two of those and said it looked like an old version of it. Go talk to them .. they know more about it than I do.

[mantis7]

actually i would like to see some clips. from these clips I will be able to divulge the origins of the forms and their authenticity.

meecer I would just like to say that reguardless of bad events in the past a teacher should be able to discuss the origins of the system with out frowning down on a student. I am the first to say amount of forms are a mote point but I am also the first to say that core information is paramount in studying a style. If The studied all these systems, even in part, and combined them all in his own version then what he is doing will be true to himself and the systems. The only reason, after my research, that I am very skeptical is because some of the forms names, especially mantis, do not appear in any Kuen po that I know. But some of the names do remind me greatly of the green dragon pamphlet list of forms.

IF you learn these forms and learn the the concepts,tech and other good things then great. I understand you love what you do and any student worth his salt will protect his teachers reputation.

The truth is here reguardless of all that you must protect your own intrest as well. Research your history, do some research on these systems your style seems to offer. Find out the key concepts and all the stuff I mentioned before. See if they match up. I am sorry for having to say this but the histroy is very suspect. The forms, the ones I have seen, are all played the same with the same type of karate power. This is not a bad thing but you might be recieving something that is not the animal you think it is.

The kung flavor is their but I am afraid that it is of the lowest level which usually occurs when someone trains only for a short while or from a book or video. It seems that the way the school plays the forms are a combination of Karate and gung fu.

wel just keep your head up and always keep and eye out for the truth. Defending your teacher is always of the utmost importance but make sure first that he deserves that defense.

Your school reminds me a great deal about a gentleman named Joe Torres who claims to be a akido grandmaster here in NY.
I studied with him when I was younger and believed everything he ever told me. The reality the material he was teaching was ineffective but the reality hit me when I lfet him for a short while and he started teaching a paticular hand set and ditang ground boxing form as part of the Akido principle. He told all the other studnets that they were three hundred years old and only taught to the most skilled inheritors. The reality was those were froms I showed him and his other student. The took the forms and learned them through vidoe tapping me performing them.

He wont even let me come to the school out of fear that I would expose him. he claimed to study under Prof. Vee and Moses powell. I happend to know both of them and one was a teacher of mine as well.

So back to my point the reason you will find it hard to find out the truth is because your GM has created a good empire for himself. He has a good amount of revenue coming for the schools and seminars and if caught could be charged with defrauding alot of people. Sometimes people perfer the dream they have and are living to the reality of things.

Also I saw the SAords teachers stone in Shoalin and just to let you know anyone can purchase the stone with donations as well as that the temple knows that alot of people have *******ize the shoalin systems and any person going to the temple or schools in the area are concidered shaolinpotential income.

but I digress. if you can get me some more clips I can tell you were most of the forms are derived from If I can or I can get toheres to decipher the origins.

Cheers
Victor

[mantis7]

Dude I am very ****ed and extremly aggitated.

I took a look at some videos of people from the Shoalin Do schools doing a drunken form,broad sword vs spear form, the five animal form, and drunken straight sword.

I am sorry to say frined but it was disgracful. The stance work was non exsistent, the techniques were not true to the systems they represent, The drunken boxing was just stumbiling and swinging of the hands.

Things like this really tick me off, I am not ticked off at you because you may or may not know these forms as being authentic.

The spear was not folloing any tech I know or have seen. It was being used as a regular staff.

Dude I know I cant convine you and it is not my place but I will tell you this. Look at other gung fu systems that your system claims to represent and compare them. The animals form didnt even use the hand forms. I.e Fu jow, fu cow and the like. THe strikes were all done with a choppy poking or punching with just the resemlance of the correct hand,claw or whatever

thie is a Rant because when I see **** like that it really drives me nutz. I wish I was close to youbecause I would definately meet up with you and display my skill and do a good exchange. I would at least give you the core concepts to mantis. I know most here flame or ridicule but I believe in correction or exchange over that nonsense.

oh and for the disclaimer that not using your system for sport. I am sorry it can be used for competitions. I used to compete and got disqualified plenty of times.

This should be a flag brother if a teacher says we do not compete because our tech are to lethal that is often a lie. I mena, even in the place of martial origin, they compete. A true martial artist will always test his skill in real competition as well as in the sports arena. but I guess thats neither here or their but I wish you luck in your training. Just keep a eye out.

Cheers
Victor

p.s these are the videos I am talking about
http://www.shao-lin.com/Category.cfm?CategoryID=65

[cerebus]

Ooooo (wincing painfully). That was bad, reeeaallly bad. Especially the "5 animal" form and the "drunken fist" form. Every time I click on a vid link for a SD demo, I hope that I'll see why the SD guys think everyone who puts them down is wrong, and that maybe some of the SD stuff is good afterall, but this wasn't it.

[Shaolin-Drunk]

actually i would like to see some clips. from these clips I will be able to divulge the origins of the forms and their authenticity.

Did you see the clips from the alanta shaolin-do center??

Here is the link,

http://www.shaolincenter.com/video/video.jsp

[Shaolin-Drunk]

I took a look at some videos of people from the Shoalin Do schools doing a drunken form,broad sword vs spear form, the five animal form, and drunken straight sword.

Those guys are the SAords.. They do the shaolin do forms different from what we are taught. They are renegades to the Shoalin - DO system.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by themeecer
In all seriousness, if you can't figure out your own applications after decades of practice then maybe the MA aren't your cup of tea. Yes I am given and also give out applications, but my core emphasis is to allow the student cater their SD experience to their own bodies and strengths. You aparently don't like that ... and I couldn't give a flying flip that you don't.

Well, seeing as how your students don't have decades of practice under their "belt," I don't see how you can justify leaving them to themselves to discover their own kung fu principles. A new student, or even a student with 3 or 4 years, does not have the capability to desconstruct forms and get everything they need. Proper instruction is THE MOST IMPORTANT aspect of kung-fu training. Afterall, what's the point of having a teacher if he doesn't teach? Apparently, you confuse good teaching with hand-holding. They are not one in the same. Of course, you think everyone here is doing Modern Wushu anyway, so why should you listen to us?

How about posting a video of yourself? I would love to see what 20 years of dedicated SD practice can do for someone.

[Judge Pen]

I don't know about renegades, but they are isolated from Kentucky, Texas, Atlanta, and Tennessee (the major SD schools) Each places emphasis on different aspects of the same form. I don't know the 5 animal form, but if one of Leonard's or Mullins' students did the form, they would show you a better representation. Personally, I haven't seen a good representation on the net.

You are right about the "sport" disclaimer. It can, and often is, used in sport MA.

MK, That is my point on some of the seminars being closed off to lower ranks. Personally I advocate a seminar form being taught in a special 6 to 12 week class that starts with drills and applications and ends with sparring from the techniques introduced in the form. But, I've had this discussion on the Mullins forum as well.

[MasterKiller]

MK, That is my point on some of the seminars being closed off to lower ranks. Personally I advocate a seminar form being taught in a special 6 to 12 week class that starts with drills and applications and ends with sparring from the techniques introduced in the form. But, I've had this discussion on the Mullins forum as well.

Sounds good. Are they going to let you explore this idea?

[Judge Pen]

They? I have my teacher's ear and he shares a similar perspective on seminars. We only have one or two a year. I pick up most of my extra materials as "give-me's" from him so we can take more time to work on the details. I've had bits a peices of various fomrs for a year or two and he will occasionaly say, "Remember that first part of 14th crane? Let's work on that application some more." I'll get all the form eventually, so no rush.

The common argument for seminar forms are to preserve the forms and provide a bit of extra income for some of the teachers that teach full time. They expect the students to be motivated enough to practice on their own and glean the applications. Some can and some can't, but as long as they are upfront with that proposition, I suppose its ok. It's just when green sashes suddenly have all this material, but can't do short form correctly that I bur in my saddle.

[Shaolin-Drunk]

Another Shaolin-Do question -

Has anyone seen the "At the Feet of the Grandmaster" DVD yet?