Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Lorenzo Valla]

First of all I just want to say that my saying "you" on my posts wasn't directed at any single person, just didn't split things up.

At the end of your comments to me I took note of what I think is a perfectly reasonable and respectable position. Being involved in the club with Sin for 40 years is good enough. I couldn't agree more and I'm happy for all of you.

As far as the translation goes, the service was Lingua Solutions. You can find them on the internet with any search engine. That's how I did it. The price was reasonable to me, but not free and I'm not going to give it away. I would encourage you to do the same. They should charge you less than they did me because its already completed. The service is confidential, but you can mention that you know it was recently done, etc...

I guess I'm having a hard time following what's going on with you guys. On this forum you have stated who/what you think your club is about. You've never posted a single piece of verifiable evidence to support it. Yet, according to your reply, I must post all of my evidence otherwise my argument is no good. By the way I do recognize my bias, do you recognize your own? I've told you how/where to go to get the translation, so please go ahead. Anecdotes, hearsay, a student of a student said 10 years ago, Sin says, Bill says, none of that makes up a well-constructed logical argument. Ideally you would bring your proof/evidence, I would bring mine and we could debate. I've given you a preview of a small part of mine and would like to be shown the same courtesy by you.

I underestimated the apparent lack of linguists on this forum. My comment about the Chinese waiter was not meant to be pejorative, but I understand why it was taken that way. I honestly wanted to get a professional, unbiased, third-party translation because I wasn't sure what was on it or not.

Maybe one day you'll realize that not everything is about the The brothers. I'm entitled to my opinion, and just because that opinion may not be shared by one or both doesn't mean I have to stay silent.

For what its worth, I'll repeat myself. This is my own opinion. I have said several times that I respect your opinion of your teacher.....I just don't happen to believe his claims.

[Flaca]

Don't forget C

Blech. I usually forget that.

Happy Birthday.

[Golden Tiger]

At the end of your comments to me I took note of what I think is a perfectly reasonable and respectable position. Being involved in the club with Sin for 40 years is good enough. I couldn't agree more and I'm happy for all of you.

Why thank you. Yes, I have been around since the days at the Buel Armory so it has been a wild ride.

By the way I do recognize my bias, do you recognize your own? I've told you how/where to go to get the translation, so please go ahead. Anecdotes, hearsay, a student of a student said 10 years ago, Sin says, Bill says, none of that makes up a well-constructed logical argument. Ideally you would bring your proof/evidence, I would bring mine and we could debate. I've given you a preview of a small part of mine and would like to be shown the same courtesy by you.

Here's the thing. 99.9% of what I say is from PERSONAL experience. Not what I heard from someone else, but what I saw and lived through.

As for a well-constructed logical arguement, so far, your has been based on here-say and opinion with the exception of the translation of a certificate that no one is disputing. We all agree that what you said is what the certificate says.

For what its worth, I'll repeat myself. This is my own opinion. I have said several times that I respect your opinion of your teacher.....I just don't happen to believe his claims.

And that is fine. I too have an opinion, based on being there when a lot of things happened.

We will just have to agree to disagree on certain things...noo harm no foul.

[Citong Shifu]

Why thank you. Yes, I have been around since the days at the Buel Armory so it has been a wild ride.



Here's the thing. 99.9% of what I say is from PERSONAL experience. Not what I heard from someone else, but what I saw and lived through.

As for a well-constructed logical arguement, so far, your has been based on here-say and opinion with the exception of the translation of a certificate that no one is disputing. We all agree that what you said is what the certificate says.



And that is fine. I too have an opinion, based on being there when a lot of things happened.

We will just have to agree to disagree on certain things...noo harm no foul.

I think everyone is kicking around a dead horse at this point. Furthermore, I dont think that there hasnt been anything "NOT" discussed or debated. This thread has become rediculously redundant!!! Regardless, what you, me, & SD people think about lineage and marketing claims, etc, it doesnt really matter.. all of us know who we are and what we're about... I think we all have at one point or another been bias to our art and marketing. So What! Lets end this thread and start a new one that will discuss training methods or principles between our styles, or something more beneficial to all of us.... I think we should have Gene lock out or delete this thread and start a more productive thread on various art differences / similarities. What do all you guys think?????

CS

[Lorenzo Valla]

Thanks for your comments. While the certificate is the most obvious piece of evidence, I think I brought up several other items that weren't hearsay. Below are some of the things that caused me to reach my conclusion. Some are small items, some not.

The name of the school and system Sin studied under was the Chung Yen Shaolin Martial Arts School.
-- He has never called his school this name.
-- The certificates issued to his students through most of the 1980s (unsure of exact date) do not contain the characters "Shaolin", "Chung Yen" or "Hiang Kwang The"

To date there has been no certificate produced naming him the Grandmaster.

His published training dates do not correspond with his certificate.

The material on the certificate doesn't correspond with the published info.

His legal effort in the early 1990s to copyright the system as the Grandmaster was dismissed.

Master Hiang kept a separate school for most of the time he has been in the U.S.
-- Neither one ever taught the other's class.
-- He was promoted in 1978 by one of his and Sin's still living former teachers.
-- He publicly refused Sin's promotion in 1983.

I think these items are fairly established and I've kept them to simple statements. No one item is proof positive, but together they indicate a troubling pattern arguing against the current claims.

Rather than replying point by point to the above, could you offer your evidence arguing for Sin's claim? Not a challenge.....just a request so we can move the dialogue further along.

[Baqualin]

I think everyone is kicking around a dead horse at this point. Furthermore, I dont think that there hasnt been "NOT" discussed or debated. This thread has become rediculously redundant!!! Regardless, what you, me, & SD people think about lineage and marketing claims, etc, it doesnt really matter.. all of us know who we are and what we're about... I think we all have at one point or another have been bias to our art and marketing. So What! Lets end this thread and start a new one that will discuss training methods or principles between our styles, or something more beneficial to all of us.... I think we should have Gene lock out or delete this thread and start a more productive thread on various art differences / similarities. What do all you guys think?????

CS

NOW THAT'S THE BEST STATEMENT I'VE READ ON THIS THREAD YET
I'm in....I'll even invite lorenzo....he should have some constructive criticism

[Judge Pen]

Hold on to the A. The formula is going to get scarce.

[Baqualin]

Thanks for your comments. While the certificate is the most obvious piece of evidence, I think I brought up several other items that weren't hearsay. Below are some of the things that caused me to reach my conclusion. Some are small items, some not.

The name of the school and system Sin studied under was the Chung Yen Shaolin Martial Arts School.
-- He has never called his school this name.
-- The certificates issued to his students through most of the 1980s (unsure of exact date) do not contain the characters "Shaolin", "Chung Yen" or "Hiang Kwang The"

To date there has been no certificate produced naming him the Grandmaster.

His published training dates do not correspond with his certificate.

The material on the certificate doesn't correspond with the published info.



Just one question.....where's Hiang's Certificate naming him Grand Master
His legal effort in the early 1990s to copyright the system as the Grandmaster was dismissed.

Master Hiang kept a separate school for most of the time he has been in the U.S.
-- Neither one ever taught the other's class.
-- He was promoted in 1978 by one of his and Sin's still living former teachers.
-- He publicly refused Sin's promotion in 1983.

I think these items are fairly established and I've kept them to simple statements. No one item is proof positive, but together they indicate a troubling pattern arguing against the current claims.

Rather than replying point by point to the above, could you offer your evidence arguing for Sin's claim? Not a challenge.....just a request so we can move the dialogue further along.

Just one question.....where's Hiang's Certificate naming him Grand Master

[Lorenzo Valla]

Thanks for your invitation and I appreciate it. Its entirely up to the regular posters whether or not to close the thread. It has probably gone on a little too long. When I started this, it was really because I had never seen it before, read it and thought some things needed to be corrected. Of course that's where we tend to disagree. Either way, I doubt I'll have the time to spend keeping up with this forum anyway. Seems to take a lot of time and at the end, I'm not sure what the goal is anyway.

[Lorenzo Valla]

Baqualin,

I'll work on that request and its a reasonable one. But my point was to present my argument and then to consider yours. Pretend you can convince me of your position. Don't just argue against me, argue for your guy.

[Judge Pen]

Thanks for your comments. While the certificate is the most obvious piece of evidence, I think I brought up several other items that weren't hearsay. Below are some of the things that caused me to reach my conclusion. Some are small items, some not.

As I haven't read the certificate or had it translated (by a professional service or the nice lady at the buffett) what you say the translation actually says is hearsay without the supporting information. If you want to argue that your version is true (it may be; I don't know) then don't take umbridge with those that would like to see the best evidence of your averments.

The name of the school and system Sin studied under was the Chung Yen Shaolin Martial Arts School.

Again, says who? You? Hiang? It may very well be, but, assuming for the sake of argument that this is correct, the fact that Hiang The now uses that name when Sin The doesn't legitmize your account any more than using "Do" instead of "tao" makes SD Japanese. You can call a mule a racehorse, but he still won't win the Derby.
-- He has never called his school this name.
Ok. Your point?
-- The certificates issued to his students through most of the 1980s (unsure of exact date) do not contain the characters "Shaolin", "Chung Yen" or "Hiang Kwang The"
See above.

To date there has been no certificate produced naming him the Grandmaster.

I've heard so much about this letter out there.... can you confirm or deny that you guys have this letter and will not return it? If so, that sounds a bit fishy to me...

His published training dates do not correspond with his certificate.

The material on the certificate doesn't correspond with the published info.

Taking your word for that

His legal effort in the early 1990s to copyright the system as the Grandmaster was dismissed.

Cases can be dimissed for numerous reasons. The Court no longer has the paperwork but the log bookes indicate that an Order of Compromise and Dismissal was entered. I know a bit about this. This means the case was settled out of court for whatever reason. Cases are "dismissed" all the time for reasons that don't go to the merits of the case.

Master Hiang kept a separate school for most of the time he has been in the U.S.
-- Neither one ever taught the other's class.
-- He was promoted in 1978 by one of his and Sin's still living former teachers.
-- He publicly refused Sin's promotion in 1983.

Again, I'll have to rely upon hearsay on that. I've always heard that they did teach under the same school.

I think these items are fairly established and I've kept them to simple statements. No one item is proof positive, but together they indicate a troubling pattern arguing against the current claims.

Arguments will always be here. With no proof positive, we can argue all day and not get anywhere.

Rather than replying point by point to the above, could you offer your evidence arguing for Sin's claim? Not a challenge.....just a request so we can move the dialogue further along.

I'm not trying to prove Sin's claim or disprove yours. I do take umbridge with the initial tone of your post and the obvious axe you have to grind here. I've been contributing to the SD train-wreck on KFO for as long as anybody (Save Rad) and no one has ever taken pot shots at Hiang The as far as I can remember. My teacher always speaks highly of Hiang The and the classes he took from him way back in the day. Why do you feel the need to come here and open up old wounds and poor salt on them???

[kwaichang]

Mr Valla,

Please scan and post your receipt. I will pay for the translation and would like for you to Fed ex it to me cod for the amount you paid that company. When I receive it along with a copy of the letter I will also have a translation done by a Linguistics professor of Chinese that I know Thanks KC

[Lorenzo Valla]

I'm sorry you feel the way you do about this situation. Do you have anything to support your claim. The claim that SD posters to this forum have made repeatedly for over two years? That's all we're talking about.

There's no point in my posting anything from any translation service, because you guys will just say its wrong, inaccurate, etc. That's why I've suggested you get your own done.

I think its always interesting to see the SD posters attitude about Hiang. At the bottom of your post you say, "no one has taken a pot shot at Hiang The as far as I can remember." At the top of the post you accuse him of stealing Sin's personal letter.

Similar comments abound through the thread. He got kicked out of the club. He's afraid to go back to Indonesia. He stays quiet because he's so ashamed. He's so desperate that he calls Master Ie his grandfather. "Oh but we respect him so"

I don't think anyone would call that or what that as respect.

[Lorenzo Valla]

I would prefer the following method.

Lingua Solutions, Inc.

Translation, Localization, Consulting

Phone: (818) 380-3008

Fax: (818) 743-7411

www.linguainc.com

(Or whoever you want to use....maybe someone different to get a different look.)

They offer free quotes and same day service if the signed invoice is faxed to them prior to 1000 pacific time.

This is a simpler and cheaper method involving a lot fewer moving parts. Oh, forgot to say this several posts ago, they send their work back to you by email so the process is very fast. You can get a copy of the certificate by going to the page on www.sinthe.com and cutting and pasting. That's what I did.

Hope that help.

[The Willow Sword]

I think we should have Gene lock out or delete this thread and start a more productive thread on various art differences / similarities. What do all you guys think?????

i dont think that this will happen because if i remember correctly his posts in the past he doesnt want alot of SD threads popping up choking the bandwidth. keep the Sd thread here where it is contained. It still has not topped the "got qi girls thread"

i say keep it here and do NOT delete or lock this thread. it is and WILL be an interesting archive and can be referenced by anyone wanting to know more about what, in my opinion they should avoid .

Peace,TWS