Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Lamassu]

Oh I do love sparring!

Sparring is a learning experience, it's your chance to put what you learned in the context of a particular form to practice. Now some things work for some people but not for all. Me, when I spar I decide ahead of time which particular form or animal set I'll incorporate in my strategy, in order to discover the practical applications. This opens me up for receiving hits at times while I'm learning how best to use this particular form, but at least it's in a friendly environment where nothings really at stake except my pride. And since, this is a learning experience, you can ask your sparring partner to slow down a bit while you figure things out. I know this doesn't sound very appealing or macho, but I feel its vital as a learning tool so that what you learn in forms can be used in combat. I've seen too many matches where the two squaring off are upper belt levels that have a lot of different techniques under their belt, but they stick to sparring techniques, or (sometimes...maybe) short forms. What's the point of learning these forms if you're not going to use them? Also, sparring is not fighting, you can't do certain things in sparring that you can do in a real street fight. Your sifu will frown on you breaking your partner's kneecap, but in a real fight that's one of the first targets I go for. Anyway, the bottom line is there is a progression of development in your study of martial arts:

1. learn the form
2. experiment different techniques while sparring (learn first hand their practicality)
3. pick and choose the techniques you like and use in sparring
4. continue to experiment; try to use less favorable techniques to understand them better
5. incorporate more that you learned from past sparring techniques, until you have a wide range you can pick and choose on the fly while sparring.

Repeat this cycle until you have experimented with all that you've learned, the reason why black belts seem so good is because this is how we learn and strive to get better. Remember, when a black belt challenges you in a sparring match, don't look at it as a test or something personal. They're simply interested in how you progress, and if you implement this form of learning in your sparring, then they'll show an interest and even give you the tips and tricks that you're looking for.

Happy sparring!

[BentMonk]

Sparring is a great way to learn. I also think that doing traditional no head contact, medium to heavy body contact "tag" sparring breeds bad habits. It's one thing to acknowledge a shot to your head, it's completely different to take a shot to your head. I'm not saying every sparring match should be full contact. Healing interferes with training. I am saying that learning to be hit should be part of your training. As Muhammad Ali said, "Every body's got a plan, 'til they get hit."

[Lamassu]

full contact sparring is effective, with the proper equipment and between two sparring partners that are familiar with each others technique so as no accidental injuries occur, but keep in mind that sparring is not fighting. Sparring tests reflexes and quick thinking, fighting is pure self preservation. Now getting knocked in the head hurts and people react to it, but keep in mind that punch or kick that makes it through your opponent's defenses, usually leads to a string of attacks or combo's inherint within whatever form you're utilizing, which students rarely follow through with because that initial 'hit' didn't actually affect their opponent, it just breached his/her defenses. This is because the students are sparring; not fighting. In a fight, once that first hit gets through, you shouldn't let up until your opponent is on the ground and doesn't feel like fighting anymore. Whereas, with sparring, if your partner asks you to back off, then you do it, because you're both in a learning environment and not really trying to kill each other (hopefully). Pain is a major factor in fighting of course, and there are methods within the SD system that toughen the body to withstand pummeling, but sparring is not, nor should it ever be, where you learn to take a hit. This could lead to serious injury and worse, litigation.

[BentMonk]

There are different types of sparring. IMO the one that is the most neglected in MA is sparring with hard to mostly full contact. The way boxers spar is the best example. Protection is worn, but you can get knocked out while sparring. This type of sparring enables you to become accustomed to the shock of being hit. It also teaches you self control. IMO the ability to withstand a shot, and keep your focus are two elements that are essential to surviving a fight. The reality is that I have a much greater likelihood of testing my abilities in the ring than I do getting into a fight. I don't go to bars, I don't frequent rough neighborhoods, I keep my mouth shut, and I don't mess with people. I am fairly certain that this will keep me out of most trouble. Still if it doesn't, I'm not going to let the first serious shot to the dome I take come from Bubba 10 years after I start training. I'd rather be at least partially prepared.

[John Many Jars]

You two bring up a good point and have peaked my curiosity. I know each school is run differently but what intensity do the SD'ers here spar?

The level of intensity definately goes up the higher the rank at my school but even during gloved sparring I don't think I've seen anybody making more than medium contact. Most of the time it's just the light contact to the body/no contact to the head. Also, the protective equipment and facilities that we use aren't really ideal for full contact, so maybe that's why. =/ Luckily, I have a few friends I can get together with and push the envelope a little.

[brucereiter]

You two bring up a good point and have peaked my curiosity. I know each school is run differently but what intensity do the SD'ers here spar?

The level of intensity definately goes up the higher the rank at my school but even during gloved sparring I don't think I've seen anybody making more than medium contact. Most of the time it's just the light contact to the body/no contact to the head. Also, the protective equipment and facilities that we use aren't really ideal for full contact, so maybe that's why. =/ Luckily, I have a few friends I can get together with and push the envelope a little.

in our school we spar generally at a mutually agreed upon intensity. most of the time it is medium contact to any part of the body. (we try not to damage each others bodies :-) )
with some students who i trust we spar very hard ...

[brucereiter]

I don't go to bars, I don't frequent rough neighborhoods, I keep my mouth shut, and I don't mess with people. I am fairly certain that this will keep me out of most trouble.

wise words to live by ...

[ninthdrunk]

Lamassu,

There's another North Austin SDer in Chicago right now. Lxtruong on the boards here. I'm sure if you were around the north school for the past five years you know him...It's Long. He taught a lot of classes for Master Schaefer. I know he's really busy with law school right now, but you should let him know you're in town so the two of you can get together when time permits.

[Lamassu]

Done and done! Long and I have already had some dialogue over being fellow strangers in a strange land. We'll see what happens next year.

As for intense sparring with knockdown blows, I understand (firsthand) and appreciate it's value, but for the sake of a MA school, I wouldn't recommend implementing it into the curriculum. The hardcore sparring I did was with my best friend and sparring partner back in Texas, and we're both black belts, but if lower belts who don't know each other very well, we're to do it, then it would spell disaster for the school since someone will assuredly get hurt, and no one should pay to get their a$$ kicked. Now if a couple of experienced students who are black belts and close friends were to spar like this on their own time outside of the MA school, well it's a free country.

But we digress, the question was what can be told about new opening moves and tactics for sparring in class, and I say start experimenting with what you learn in your forms while you spar with your partner. You'll find yourself open at first, but you'll learn fast enough when and where any particular technique is effective. And you'll be more satisfied with what you've learned when you land some of those hits.

[Judge Pen]

This could lead to serious injury and worse, litigation.

I'm effective at inflicting both.

Serioulsy, most of the sparring at the SD schools I've encounterd is the medium body, light to no contact to the head variety which has its place. Occassionally, we mix it up with heavier contact with the proper gear, but the clinch work and ground techniques are still lacking to some degrees. Of course, my teachers have no issue with me going to where-ever I want to mix it up with other schools in other formats which is a supplement to my sparring training. (Like Oso's school). I get more ground and clinch work there which is a great environment to learn. It's certainly humbling to get tossed like a rag-doll from someone who knows how to cleanly execute a throw and it's also a good litmus test to see how well you land and react to being tossed. I learn something new everytime I cross hands with someone.

[Judge Pen]

But we digress, the question was what can be told about new opening moves and tactics for sparring in class, and I say start experimenting with what you learn in your forms while you spar with your partner. You'll find yourself open at first, but you'll learn fast enough when and where any particular technique is effective. And you'll be more satisfied with what you've learned when you land some of those hits.

Here's a different perspective. Most people get good enough to keep a good cover and not get hit until they start being offensive. Counter-techniques and reactions are key to good sparring. As an opening move throw a good sold technique or combo into their guard. Don't worry about getting through their gurad, but force them to react to you. Make them change their guard or stance and then try to take advantage of the opening it creates. Just don't over-extend yourself in the process. It's like a boxer who works the jab...the point isn't to hit them with every technique, but to keep it in their face and force them to work around it. Eventually it will open up the cross or the hook where the real impact can occur. Try a crisp teep or side kick into their guard and try to frce them to react. Eventually their hands will start to drop and allow you to play off of your kicks.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Serioulsy, most of the sparring at the SD schools I've encounterd is the medium body, light to no contact to the head variety which has its place

That's wierd...CSC ATL doesn't let lower belts (white-green) hit very hard. But when it comes to brown belt, the training is to end a fight asap by getting someone on the ground (sweeps, mostly). I'm not saying anything negative...it's just what all the instructors drill us on. There's plenty of opportunity to hit the head at that level, and one can expect to get hit in the head even by black belts at a good contact level...to give a brownie plenty of time to get used to it.

To be honest, I wouldn't want to train with too many restrictions. Sure, there's no use trying to hurt anyone. But I've learned invaluable lessons about maintaining a guard in all scenarios--on attack, defense, on the move, etc. (especially with regard to the face and head [and groin]). Someone can tell you to always maintain a guard, and you can practice it, but if you don't have to during sparring, you probably won't when you really need to. All stances should negate concerns with those anyways with regard to leg/hand position. I firmly believe tournament training/cheap sparring waters down the essentials in order to cater to what's legal, not what's effective or available.

Or were you talking about tournaments? We don't really have those down here. Seems to be a Do thing exclusively. Not doggin' ya JP, just pointing out geographical differences. I saw your vid of sparring in Asheville 'gainst a "Shaolin" guy. You had him down pretty quick on most of the matches.

PS--he wasn't SHaolin. He was practicing Isshun-Ryu Karate. That arm waving cadence/toe stepping is unmistakable.

[brucereiter]

CSC ATL doesn't let lower belts (white-green) hit very hard.

it is because they are the most dangerous :-) lol ...

i am all for heavy contact sparring as long as there is no anger involved, when somebody starts getting ****ed off and show anger i stop working with them.

i think it is good that it does not get broken up right when it goes to the ground (if that happens) for the most part you want to stay off the ground but if you never go there you will not know what to do when it happens :-)

peace

[Judge Pen]

To be honest, I wouldn't want to train with too many restrictions. Sure, there's no use trying to hurt anyone. But I've learned invaluable lessons about maintaining a guard in all scenarios--on attack, defense, on the move, etc. (especially with regard to the face and head [and groin]). Someone can tell you to always maintain a guard, and you can practice it, but if you don't have to during sparring, you probably won't when you really need to. All stances should negate concerns with those anyways with regard to leg/hand position. I firmly believe tournament training/cheap sparring waters down the essentials in order to cater to what's legal, not what's effective or available.

I couldn't agree with you more about that. I think that the way sparring is taught in most SD schools can lead to bad habits IF that's all that was taught. I do think you should start out lighter and work your way up and that the sparring should always be controlled, but it should be a progression to the point where we are sparring with mor practicality than playing a game of tag.

Or were you talking about tournaments? We don't really have those down here. Seems to be a Do thing exclusively. Not doggin' ya JP, just pointing out geographical differences. I saw your vid of sparring in Asheville 'gainst a "Shaolin" guy. You had him down pretty quick on most of the matches.

That tournament was an open style tournament. I participate in some of the SD tournaments too, when we have them, but I like fighting agasint other people from other styles as it tests what I'm taught versus what else is out there.

PS--he wasn't SHaolin. He was practicing Isshun-Ryu Karate. That arm waving cadence/toe stepping is unmistakable.

Yeah, I knew it was soething else, but I wasn't sure what. To be honest, the guy was a tournament guy--probably one who went around and fought in all kinds of tornaments because he liked to fight and he liked to get trophys. He was very fast and very atletic. I watched him measure the ring so he could guage the distance for different techniques before the fights started. He knew what he was doing and he ultimately took first in that tournament.

[tattooedmonk]

Hope you all are doing well . Especially all you new parents.