Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Judge Pen]

As far as I know, there is "SD ban" on fighting in tournaments. Personally I would be suspect of a teacher that said that from the off-set--I'm not saying this is the reason that your teacher said no tournaments--, but I would always be suspect that the real reason--wrapped up in some fortune cookie explanation--is that they are afraid that their students will not do well and it would hurt their reputation and their bottom line.

My teachers have never had an issue with me seeking open competition--I've never taken first, but I've always represented them and myself well. Wgat's wrong with that?

[brucereiter]

As far as I know, there is "SD ban" on fighting in tournaments. Personally I would be suspect of a teacher that said that from the off-set--I'm not saying this is the reason that your teacher said no tournaments--, but I would always be suspect that the real reason--wrapped up in some fortune cookie explanation--is that they are afraid that their students will not do well and it would hurt their reputation and their bottom line.

My teachers have never had an issue with me seeking open competition--I've never taken first, but I've always represented them and myself well. Wgat's wrong with that?

hi jp,

hope all is well with the baby/family :-)

as a teacher here in atlanta i have never heard of there being a ban on fighting in tournaments. i also dont know any students here who do that type of training, but there are several who i think would do really well. i would love to see someone go to a tournament and compete (as jp did) if i heard of a student wanting to i would offer them encouragement ...

best,

b

[Zen Archer]

Hello again, all. It's good to see some intelligent discourse on this thread. Hope you all had wonderful holiday times with your families. I have a response to the question regarding us participating in tourneys. As far as I know, it is discouraged, but not banned. I have personal experience of people from the CSC Denver school competing in tourneys. Back in the 90's we had a 5th sash black who was the most formidable fighter in the school by most accounts. I myself personally had a couple of bloody sparring matches with him as a brown belt. A good friend of mine who was also a brown at the time did the same. This 5th black did participate in some tourneys in the mid-90's. They were somewhat point based with a lot of rules of things not allowable. He did not win the top title of tourneys I saw due to lack of points, and lack of executing impressive technique. However he was very obviously not hurt or even rocked by any technique executed against him even though they resulted in points and wins for his opponent. He is no longer with the school, and some said he had a bad attitude ( my fellow brown and close friend was one ). Personally I liked the guy, and he was always completely honorable and helpful with me. Though our matches could be a little brutal, I learned a lot from him, about myself especially.

[kwaichang]

I competed in tournaments from 1975 - 1984. The tournaments of today are far different than those of that time. I competed again in 2000 and 2002 but was not as successful. I had trained with alot of contact for many of those years and realize that Tourneys are not a realistic way of competing , too many rules. As far as the "do not compete in others tournaments I was told not to but said if I did no big deal. I think it was due primarily to the concept that you should fight as you train and many of the techniques taught in SD are not allowed or applicable in tournaments. Example how many people use a Tiger or white crane technique purely ?? KC

[Zen Archer]

I agree with you, Kwaichang. One of the main reasons tournament fighting is discouraged is that by training to fight within a rules system for a large percentage of your training time spent you may become somewhat conditioned to not using some of your most effective techniques. Since my #1 practical and physical goal in training is for the ability to deal effectively with real life bad situations directed toward myself or my family, I would hate to condition myself into not using what is most immediately effective for me in those situations. I believe that the individual I referred to suffered from two problems in those contests. One, I believe, was actually stage fright from performing in front of a large crowd, in other words not being comfortable in that type of environment. The other, by my personal opinion, was the issue of not being able to use many techniques integral to our art. This is not an excuse, but my opinion on why he did not fare so well. By the same token, in most sparring within schools or in most competitions of today, even so-called NHB events there are rules. In reality, if someone is going to train for competetition they should be able to adjust their style to reflect the given rules and still remain somewhat effective. There may be some truth in the statement that it might reflect on the school badly if someone did not fare well in tourneys as for a reason why they are discouraged. However, when our student competed I know almost everyone in the school including the masters were there to give support and to observe this person compete. In a "real" test of martial skill there are absolutely no rules, this is the only true way of testing whether x person from style a is a superior fighter to y fighter from style b. As far as tournament fighting today I haven't seen a huge amount of events recently, but I don't see competing as being necessarily a negative thing. Personally, if I were to compete I would prefer to compete in a variety of organizations and rule systems so as to cultivate the ability to adapt and incorporate or remove various aspects of my fighting style based on the given situation, at will. This, to me, would be positive and would create in me a fighter that would easily add technique back to his fighting style in a hairy situation if needed to defend effectively.

[Zen Archer]

One more thing one a different subject. I have been doing some research on TCMA and Shaolin versus other styles of martial art. Maybe I can get some of my "favorite" posters up in arms again, while being like Shiva and destroying ignorance. One of the main points of argument on many different threads has been how various martial arts stack up. One that really made me laugh (search realfighting on yahoo) rated shaolin last in a list of ten martial arts as being effective for defense. All you fellow Shaolin: these "experts" ranked us below karate, judo, muay thai, jujitsu, & boxing in effectiveness for self defense. They as well as many other individuals indicate there is no ground defense in Shaolin as well as many other untruths. Aside from the fact there is much ground technique in many of our different styles, we have a seminar once or twice a year devoted solely to learning and practicing application of ground technique. This is just an example of misinformation. I digress, back to my point. The point is this: it is commonly known in (Eastern) Chinese martial arts circles including true Shaolin that effective defense comprises proficiency in four areas. Ti or kicking, Da or punching, Shuai or wrestling, & Na or Qin Na also known as to seize and to hold. This would also encompass jujitsu etc. A complete fighter must posess ability in all areas for street defense or the ancient art of Lei Tai ( real no holds barred fighting). Wrestling in ancient China and other places was developed as a defense against kicking and punching, and for this reason very few kick-and-punch only practitioners do well a against a wrestler at the same level of skill. Qin Na was developed as defense against wrestlers, hence the success of pure Qin Na stylists (or Jujitsu) against many wrestlers of similar skill. And for the last one that is sure to get some egotistical response from Gracie fighters and other jujitsu fans: Kicking and punching is the best defense against Qin Na or Jujitsu. Before you argue that one better go back and look at some of the 60 or so UFC. You will find that many of the people who defeated primarily Jujitsu style fighters, while maybe having a little knowledge of Jujitsu and it's counters, were in fact expert strikers! Is Shaolin-Do for real? Well, I'll tell you this: anyone highly proficient at kicking and punching will do very well against jujitsu practoners by the application of a single and very simple strategy: don't let them grab you and punish them every time they try to do so, which has been demonstrated in UFC and other NHB events. When I say highly proficient kickers and punchersI would specifically refer to Shaolin at the top of their game, just to be clear. One of the problems with this comparison is that someone who is truly at a high level in Shaolin should have destroyed the ego or be close to that goal, and may see no need to compete or engage in combat, thus the endless criticisms from all about it's not real. Maybe I should train for these events, since I have a long way to go in my spiritual development and destruction of the ego. I HAVE been describrd on this forum as pompous. That would be quite a riot to see a forty something (old) Shaolin pounding some NHB fighters in the ring, wouldn't it? Rest assured, if I were to do it I would have proficiency in all four areas mentioned! If I can come up with a way to feel like I'm not going backward in my spiritual development by doing this, you may all see me in the Octagon at 45.

[jigahus]

There are only 3 things constant in life. Death, taxes, and this freakin Shaolin-Do thread.

[Golden Tiger]

When I joined up, I was told not to enter any tournaments. I had no intention to, and still don't---not why I'm here.

To the best of my knowledge, there is not and never was a ban on entering outside tournaments. I have many friends that came out of the Lexington gym, back when Master Sin taught there (even back at the Sports Center with Master Hiang) that fought in just about everyone that was within driving distance.

It might not have ever been encouraged for what ever reason, but we trained in the gym with Master Sin watching many nights for open matches.

I kind of agree with JP's take on it but we (Lex) have never worried if we were going to do good or bad, we just liked to fight.

[Judge Pen]

hi jp,

hope all is well with the baby/family :-)

as a teacher here in atlanta i have never heard of there being a ban on fighting in tournaments. i also dont know any students here who do that type of training, but there are several who i think would do really well. i would love to see someone go to a tournament and compete (as jp did) if i heard of a student wanting to i would offer them encouragement ...

best,

b

Hey b, I didn't think there was a ban down there, but I've heard people say "my teacher won't let us compete in an open style tournament" and that always galls me. Tournament competition is what it is, but you can learn a lot about yourself in the process.

As far as the limitations of tournaments on ones effective technique, well that's a topic that's will be debated long after this SD thread has died--I'll say this--any controled environment will have certain rules for safety (they have to) and that will put some degree of hinderance on the technique one can use, but in order to train the live elements that would allow one the timing and the composure to employ an unlimited technique you have to be able to work agasint a resisting opponent and sparring, tournament or otherwise, is one of the best ways to cultivate those skills. Today, more than ever, there are venues that allow for more variety in technique that at least make the sparring more realistic then the point-sparring tournaments that we've all seen. Its a tool to your personal advancement, nothing more.

Zen Archer, I liked what you said "someone who is truly at a high level in Shaolin should have destroyed the ego or be close to that goal, and may see no need to compete or engage in combat" and I agree with that. I think that the competition is in myself and with my ego--can I overcome my ego and still have the desire to push myslef to become better? Can I overcome pride in winning and resentment in losing? I can sit at home and think that I can while pondering my belly-button, but until I put myself out there my beliefs remain unchallenged and untested.

[Shaolin Wookie]

One that really made me laugh (search realfighting on yahoo) rated shaolin last in a list of ten martial arts as being effective for defense. All you fellow Shaolin: these "experts" ranked us below karate, judo, muay thai, jujitsu, & boxing in effectiveness for self defense.

Haha....yeah. I love those comparisons. As if there weren't variations in karate, judo, muay thai, jujitsu, or boxing. I disregard those rankings as soon as I see 'em. Lumps everything into a convenient package.....little regard to internal variation. Hell, I know a lifetime TKD'er who can kick a little ass now and again . And I still don't know of anyone, in any martial art, who would have wanted to face Tyson in his prime.

Ti or kicking, Da or punching, Shuai or wrestling, & Na or Qin Na also known as to seize and to hold. This would also encompass jujitsu etc. A complete fighter must posess ability in all areas for street defense or the ancient art of Lei Tai ( real no holds barred fighting).

If there's one gripe I have with SD, it's that chin-na are often taught as escape maneuvers, rather than offensive maneuvers. Yeah, they might be elementary at first (a la the 30 that newbies learn).....but even those can get something going and throw off the pace of a fight. CMA guys seem to shun excessive grabbing--for a reason, true. But sometimes it can be your best friend...depending on the scenario. And if you know how to grab, you often learn how to defend against a grab twice as effectively...not to mention that if you don't practice it, you'll be all the more susceptible to it......ah....a lesson for push hands....my weakest skill



And for the last one that is sure to get some egotistical response from Gracie fighters and other jujitsu fans: Kicking and punching is the best defense against Qin Na or Jujitsu.

I believe MK once refuted the statement that ground fighters/bjj fighters had an almost perfect record in full contact tournaments by saying (paraphrased): "That's impossible. Only one ground fighter can win a match. So BJJ has a 50% win record, at best, against other ground fighters....." [only, he said it better, and I'm sure he'd agree]


Anyways...about the tournaments. Interesting perspectives. I was told that tourneys were pretty much taboo when I entered. I even remember the words "kicked out" appearing in their context. But I think the sifu in question simply meant "without my consent." Maybe it's a way to make sure only students with the right mentality/skill should represent his reputation in a public forum (not an online one, thank god, or I'm sure I'd be in some heat ).

Although right now I have no intention of really being a "tournament guy", it mmight be fun every once in a while testing out my skills against other styles. I always hear tell of sparring groups open to the general public, but I'm never around for it----although, sooner or later I'm gonna have to sneak into one of SDiscool's sparring sessions to check it out.

Soon as my danged schedule gets hammered out. Got passed up for the job that would have done it for me.....****......

But hell, if they want second best, they can take it.

[ironcu]

Mr. Ching, Gene

I noticed you have removed both of mine postings

1. need an honest answer
2. in search for knowledge

Your reasons was that I posted my ads in every forum. Maybe that's the rule that I didn't know about or did not read about. My reasons doing that was because I thought every forum is different and that in order for people to see my ad I must post my ad in every forum. If the rule is not to post the same ad in every forum that's fine with me however I disagree. I think my ads are very reasonable and deserve attention from all the members in the martial art community and all serious martial artists. My ads are intended for education purposes only because I am serious about learning and I have no other intention besides learning. If I may ask you to place my ads back in any forum you choose to so others can view and respond to. Thanks you for your time!

sincerely,
Ironcu.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Plus....if I've never been in a tournament....how could I really criticize? I've heard both good and bad extolled. Maybe it does help one mature---and maybe it would make me a better, more appreciative MA?

Who knows?

Or maybe I'd just drop some money on a worthless experience.....not that that hasn't happened before.....I actually paid to go see Snakes on a Plane with my girlfriend.... (as a joke though....)

But for right now....I've got plenty on my plate already. That can wait until another day....when I'm much better than I am now. Sparring top-notch SD'ers is a trip in itself. And any time an Atlanta CSC teacher says something to me, and it just clarifies the obvious (which I obviously missed ), I know just how far I am from understanding what's in front of me. Keeps me humble and honest (when I'm not getting fed up and venting on this forum...hahaha).

Anyway, thanks for the input.

Maybe you guys could answer another question:

What's with the break between SDA and CSC? I hope I'm not stirring up bad blood, and I know there's some differences in the way we study....and even in some of the forms.....

If it's not too touchy/personal a subject, might be interesting to know. I hear both sides talk (mostly, people are indifferent and think it's unfair to divide them up), but I wonder how it came to be that there are two sides....

I heard that if I went to an SDA school, my CSC belt ranking wouldn't transfer with me. I can understand that (to a certain degree), but it seems a little wierd.

There's two different camps writing the same history. I've just been wondering why.....

[Shaolin Wookie]

As an afterthought.........

Don't think b/c there isn't much talk of tournaments that we don't have good fighters in ATL. I've seen the best fighters in my life studying the Do (Tao...whatever) here in the dirty south.

Funny how SD and good fighting reputations seem to follow each other around, even on this forum, when we're the group on the "fringe"....

[Shaolin Wookie]

I appreciate that, and I'll keep it confidential. I've heard good things about SD even from my CSC instructors. My sifu says they're the same thing, but there's this screen of fog about why they're different.

As for cordialty---I've never gotten an ill vibe from any SD guys---'specially y'all. Same with CSC.....that's why I figured it was politics. And if GM Sin can see past it, I don't see why any of us can't.

You know?

[brucereiter]

I will tell you that all students of GMS (SD or CSC) are welcome anytime at the Lex. school to work out or what ever....but I would advise you to not let anybody on your end find out if you decide to visit
BQ

and any student of gmt is welcome to come train in atlanta :-)

i dont think there is a problem in visiting other schools and would not be concerned about "letting anybody on your end" know :-) ...

best,

b