View Poll Results: What to do about the 'Is Shaolin-Do for real?' thread

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  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Merge all S-D threads together so it clears 1000 posts!

    22 38.60%
  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Let all the S-D threads stand independently.

    13 22.81%
  • Keep IS-Dfr locked down. All IS-Dfr posters deserved to be punished.

    5 8.77%
  • Delete them all. Let Yama sort them out.

    17 29.82%
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Thread: Is Shaolin-Do for real?

  1. #4711
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaolin Wookie View Post
    I always hear tell of sparring groups open to the general public, but I'm never around for it----although, sooner or later I'm gonna have to sneak into one of SDiscool's sparring sessions to check it out.
    i am waiting :-) lol ...
    best,

    bruce

    Happy indeed we live,
    friendly amidst the hostile.
    Amidst hostile men
    we dwell free from hatred.

    http://youtube.com/profile?user=brucereiter

  2. #4712
    Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the rift between SD and CSC was between the east and west schools. I didn't think there was any issue between SD and Master Groom's schools.

    I asked the masters about visiting some SD schools a couple of years ago and they seemed fine with it. We've also had a few SD'ers stop in to train. It was cool seeing some of the different movements and applications from the forms.

    Here's a question. Has anybody seen chin na 31 and up?


    Zen Archer wrote:
    They as well as many other individuals indicate there is no ground defense in Shaolin as well as many other untruths. Aside from the fact there is much ground technique in many of our different styles, we have a seminar once or twice a year devoted solely to learning and practicing application of ground technique.
    Are you talking about being able to defend yourself from the ground (wrestling) , taking people to the ground (sweeps/throws) or avoiding being taken to the ground?

    By my definition, I don't qualify what we learn in those festivals as "ground defenses". Maybe sweeping or kicking somebody from the ground could count but that's about it. In my short time in the art I've basically learned how to take people to the ground (sweeps), if I'm on the ground, how to attack a standing person w/ sweeps and kicks and some ways to try to avoid being taken to the ground (chin na, striking, foot work, etc.) but as far as handling myself if an attacker already has me on the ground, not much. Maybe some holds and strikes. Definately, no wrestling of any kind. =/

  3. been awhile!

    as for the rift...there was an email from gmt to stop it or get out basically lol

    so i think that one is done

    as for belt transferring...i can see why they wouldnt straight transfer the rank since there are subtle differences in every school.

    but in my opinion i think they should let you transfer it..just repass the material for your new instructor

    as for ground techniques i have learned a lot! in watching ufc i see instance after instance where a ground technique we/i have learned would have ended the match.


    so yes we get a very good background on holds sweeps takedowns and what to do when your on the ground.

    hey bq how you been man?

  4. #4714
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    Ground defense training depends on teacher....

    It seems to me that the whole issue of ground defense and its "groundedness" revolves around the mentality of the teacher. For instance, in Atlanta, I've heard Senior Master Grooms repeatedly state that he will do anything he can to stay on his feet and avoid going to the ground (and I believe it--he kicks and punches like lightning!). From the couple of times I've trained in Marietta, I got plenty of groundwork--Master Reid's takedown seminars focus more on the wrestling aspect than other ATL CSC groups (mounts, locks, holds, etc.). There are major differences in takedowns depending on the teacher. But for the most part, most of them focus on stand-up takedowns and throws.

  5. #4715
    Quote Originally Posted by John Many Jars View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the rift between SD and CSC was between the east and west schools. I didn't think there was any issue between SD and Master Groom's schools.
    I'm a little confused here. I know Master G studied under Master's David and Sharon. So aren't the southern schools at least associated with the Chinese Shaolin Center?

    In any case I do sense some tension between SD and CSC. For example on the CSC website they show GMT's schedule. However it only covers the events at the CSC schools and no mention of SD. Also if you go over to the SD website there is no mention of CSC or a list of their Masters.

    Should there not be general information about the art on both sites?

    By the way props goes to the Atlanta School for having a complete list of Masters from all branches of the art.

  6. #4716
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    Hey BDAWG.....

    I got the skinny from several peeps on both sides. It's nothing. All the schools are related.....but some ego-tripping, etc. caused several divisions.

    I think all we need to know is that GM Sin The is the Grandmaster.

    That should probably suffice. If any of my teachers said--hey, I don't like how they do this at this or that school.....or hey, I don't like how this guy teaches at this or that school....or hey, I don't like the rank advancement standards at this or that school.......I'd probably just chalk it up as a personal thing, and something I don't have to agree with.....and probably shouldn't.

    I say let sleeping dogs lie. It's really nothing to yunguns like you or I.

  7. #4717
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    Do any of you guys ever experiment with the forms?

    For instance: When I run through Sea-Dragon Cane, I kind of get the picture of Sun WuKong in my head, and use it to enhance the form--since it's a tale taken from the Hsi Yu Chi. I don't make monkey sounds or scratch, but I stress the monkey aspects of it (and in the story, he's quite prideful and angry when he's thrashing through the dragon's underwater temple--so I mimic it a little with certain rhythms). It's not "marketed" as a monkey form....but its monkey overtones are readily apparent (360's, circular strikes, quick footwork). Some people have commented that they think I get into the spirit of animal forms better than others. That's always been my focus---besides striking hard/properly.

    I hear people say "get into the spirit" all the time......but I rarely see that performance aspect in their forms. But the one's I see do this are usually the best.

    I suppose what I'm driving at is this: "Getting into the spirit", from what I've seen on a large part in SD, is usually akin to....I'm doing tiger, so I'll just make a flurry of motion and hope it looks fierce, and hit hard, maybe even harder/off balance.....not, the tiger is powerful and graceful, and always in perfect balance and sync, so therefore I'll get the most power out of a fluid motion (with very deep stances)....not a flurry of motion.

    I'm still a rookie by most accounts (KFM, and otherwise...what a bad pun) .....just wondering which approach is better, in the long run.

    Someone told me a while back that I shouldn't perform my forms, or else they lose their meaning. I think anyone who has ever met me in my school would say I extract more meaning/applications out of them than they thought possible....and I know I've barely scratched the surface. But as I get these applications/meanings, I tend to "perform" the form even more. For instance....during a form, I'll often pause at a particular stance (i.e. during Luo Tien, at the end of the second section, you fold arms, unwind, then kind of do a low clearing motion with a bird beak [as in clearing a kick] while guarding high with the right hand--same as in Interconnecting Fist near the beginning]). I do something like this in every form, sometimes several times, but I still stress hard/realistic strikes and technically sound stances. I feel that every form has certain internal "markers" at which one should pause, maybe even reflect, on the motions before and the motions after. It gives a form a rhythm. Not a long pause, but what one critic of my form once called "posing". He said it looked good, and I was striking hard....but I posed once or twice in each form.

    Is that really so bad? When you hit a seven star stance, or a tiger bow/cat, etc. in the middle of a form, I think you ought to pause--for a second, maybe. Those are the kinds of markers that distinguish a form, IMHO.

    Lots of people just hurry through them without any rhythm, and it looks sloppy. Might be good for cardio, but it doesn't really teach 'em much. Consequently, they wind up kickboxing and never using hte material.

    I'm pretty good a sparring in each style I've learned (even at my lowly level in the big scheme of things). Might sound like I'm getting a big head here, but trust me, I'm not. I'm just looking for tips from experienced guys.

    I'm not talking wushu-like performance....but in a way, my forms attain a cosmetic appeal. I actually think it's made me better as an MA. Concentrating on rhythm and fluidity has given me insights into power generation. And sometimes the snappiness of a form isn't its strength. Mantis forms are generally snappy, from what I've seen. But crane forms are fluid, golden tigers are fluid, drunken are fluid....etc....etc....etc....

    I've had limited exposure to him in my 2 years.....would you say GM The "performs" his forms? I thought he did in 1 or 2 that I've seen....but he was teaching them at the time, so it was hard to tell.

    Anyone have an opinion? Any advice for a dedicated student?

  8. #4718
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zen Archer View Post
    I agree with you, Kwaichang. One of the main reasons tournament fighting is discouraged is that by training to fight within a rules system for a large percentage of your training time spent you may become somewhat conditioned to not using some of your most effective techniques. .
    I have never once been to a "controlled contact" tournament that was anything less than full contact. One of the sad things in this country is people attempting to injure others under the guise of sportsmanship. However if you are training to be a FIGHTER becoming conditioned should not even be an issue as ANY fighting experience is Good experience 'if' you are training to become a FIGHTER. Martial art practice is about learning to control SELF. Once you can effectively do this controlling others is a piece of cake.


    Train on Shaolin Do Dudes
    To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders.
    -Patanjali Samadhi


    "Not engaging in ignorance is wisdom."
    ~ Bodhi


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  9. #4719
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    Lok

    Your post is confusing , the purpose of controlled contact is so no one is hurt if the tourneys you went to ended up being full contact then they did not understand what was meant by control.
    One of my first teachers explained it to me like this " If you punch at the chest and hit the spot you want to, that is one kind of control, at that point you may choose the depth you want the technique to go to the skin, below the skin , past the muscle, to the organs or through the body" Control means using enough force for the situation and no more . I agree with you about controlling self etc. KC
    A Fool is Born every Day !

  10. Quote Originally Posted by BoulderDawg View Post
    I'm a little confused here. I know Master G studied under Master's David and Sharon. So aren't the southern schools at least associated with the Chinese Shaolin Center?

    In any case I do sense some tension between SD and CSC. For example on the CSC website they show GMT's schedule. However it only covers the events at the CSC schools and no mention of SD. Also if you go over to the SD website there is no mention of CSC or a list of their Masters.

    Should there not be general information about the art on both sites?

    By the way props goes to the Atlanta School for having a complete list of Masters from all branches of the art.
    no master grooms runs his own branch.

    i agree the websites should have some universal love to them. in time it will come.

  11. #4721
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    Why is it called Shaolin-Do?

  12. #4722
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwaichang View Post
    Your post is confusing , the purpose of controlled contact is so no one is hurt if the tourneys you went to ended up being full contact then they did not understand what was meant by control.
    One of my first teachers explained it to me like this " If you punch at the chest and hit the spot you want to, that is one kind of control, at that point you may choose the depth you want the technique to go to the skin, below the skin , past the muscle, to the organs or through the body" Control means using enough force for the situation and no more . I agree with you about controlling self etc. KC
    What are you confused about? I have watched this phenomenon unfold at various sports contests all over the US. It is shameful when someone attempts to commit harm with malice under the guise of sportsmanship don't you think?

    My point was someone mentioned light contact sparring was discouraged amongst the SD community because it might build some impulse to hesitate at a time lethal action was called for. I disagree a little more than I'd agree.

    If one is in control of one's self then impulse dose not have a place. Unified mind, body, spirit equals on the fly conscious selection. Self control is the root of the gung fu practice. I appreciate the depth of thought in your explanation.

    What I was attempting to explain with my comment was n short any type of combat experience is good experience just don't be fooled thinking the other fellow is interested in the rules.

    Watch for the cheap shot even at a friendly weekend tourney.
    To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders.
    -Patanjali Samadhi


    "Not engaging in ignorance is wisdom."
    ~ Bodhi


    Never miss a good chance to shut up

  13. #4723
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    Cool OK I see, KC
    A Fool is Born every Day !

  14. #4724
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    Quote Originally Posted by NJM View Post
    Why is it called Shaolin-Do?
    ARHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHGGGGGGHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!

    Must be new to the forum.

    It's a chinese influenced martial art that "grew up" in Indonesia when it was occupied by Japan. Our great grandmaster (not a monk, but a student of a former martial monk) was teaching this "chinese" art while in exile b/c of the cultural revolution. Well, as the story goes, the Japanese didn't like Chinese "shaolin" being taught there, because it looked like it might stir up some seeds of revolution (a fear of every ruler since its inception--hence the Ming "sun and moon" trademark shaolin bow--read any history for further elucidation). So GM Ie Chang Ming adopted the use of a gi and started teaching his shaolin as a "pseudo-japanese" art under the name of Chung Yen Northern Shaolin. When GM The came to America in the early sixties to attend Univ. of Kentucky, he started a school called "Sin The's Shaolin Karate-Do." He used karate because that's what people called martial arts back then. TKD was karate. Kung-fu was karate. Muay Thai was karate. Well, eventually the school got several locations going, and started calling it Shaolin-Do. Some spell it Shaolin-Tao. Depends on the school, but it's the same thing. One way or another it means the same thing: "Way of the Shaolin."

    I would have said---go back and read this thread from the beginning----but it's really just too dang long, and I would have felt bad.

  15. #4725
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaolin Wookie View Post
    So GM Ie Chang Ming adopted the use of a gi and started teaching his shaolin as a "pseudo-japanese" art under the name of Chung Yen Northern Shaolin.
    Yeah, because using a Chinese word in your school name is the smart way to throw people off the scent, huh? No way Shorinji would have worked better in that scenario.
    He most honors my style who learns under it to destroy the teacher. -- Walt Whitman

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    As a mod, I don't have to explain myself to you.

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