Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Baqualin]

lunghushan spilled the beans. It's MMA.......Martian Martial Arts!

Hey Xia,
Thanks for stopping in, I've been reading some of your post lately....good job.
BQ

[BoulderDawg]

Okay well i've got permission but i somehow must figure out how to resize them:S you can only post pictures that are 100 Kb:S
Oh and btw, i allready feel a little bit of hostility here. Pleas do not confuse Sifu Decramer with Shaolin-Do. He is in no way affiliated to this group or what they're about. And yes the pictures are real. They're comin' up.

Hmmmmm........So much for the pictures I guess.

When I saw this post and the guy mentioned, "i allready feel a little bit of hostility here" I kinda knew there were no pictures.

[MasterKiller]

Ok guys,
7 average education level of SD practioners ,at least high school and 2 years of college

Um....I'll call bullsh1t on this one. I would venture 50% or more are kids under 16, just like every other martial arts school on the planet.

Unless of course you have the stats to back it up.

WHITE EARP-
I can resize the photos for you. Send me a PM if you are interested and I'll supply an email address.

[The Willow Sword]

it wont be made. How can it? The movie has been talked about for YEARS and still nothing. i think that it could be made if the facts about Su kong IE :Li baoshu are set straight. I would imagine that there are several reasons that we are not privey to as to why this movie has never been made. I would guess, ONE big reason is the controversy over The Fukien shaolin temple, and of course Li baoshu,not to mention SD's rep in this country.
Also, you have to wonder about how a movie like this would stand up to movies like HERO and FEARLESS and GOLDEN ARMOUR, CROUCHING TIGER HIDDEN DRAGON etc etc.

Seems to me that a SD movie would have the same calibre as say "GymKata" or "American Ninja" . it would fall in the category of a B rated Underground movie and prolly not a very good one at that.

Peace,TWS

[Shaolin Wookie]

WhiteEarp; no one is confusing you with Shaolin-do. Everyone here is interested is learning more of Ie Chang Ming and the material he taught. If your teacher did train with Ie Chang Ming, then that is major news for people who train in SD as one of the major arguments that SD is not legitimate is that no one else references Ie Chang Ming or the fabled Su Kong Tai Djing. If you r teacher did train with him, and you are of the opinion that the material he learned is legitimate kung fu, then that is one more piece of the SD puzzle filled in by an independant source. GM The is still going to be a controversial figure and no one is going to link you or your teacher with him beyond the Ie Chang Ming connection. It appears that your teacher trained with Master Ie after Sin and Hiang The came to the states.

As for hostility, some are worse than others, but typically most people have intelligent and respectul conversations about SD etc.

Agreed. We all seem to agree as well that GM The adapted the material to his reflect his own take on the styles he learned. Different SD/CSC schools even have cirriculum/forms differences. But we're all bonded by Sin The. It would be nice to hear something from somebody else who learned from Great GM Ie Chang Ming.

It would certainly be interesting to hear from you White Earp.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Okay....this will sound kind of funny: (b/c SD is the most comprehensive martial art in the WORLD!!! )

Anybody in SD currently cross-training in another style/system? I'm thinking of ditching either CSC's internal arts or external arts program (keeping one) for a while (not forever). I love it....but there's something else I'd like to explore right now. There's a Southern Mantis school in Atlanta that I'd like to try out which is more conducive to my schedule, and will give me pretty good instruction from what I hear (a Henry Poo Yee school). Plus, I've gotta admit, I've always been itching to get some good southern centerline practice. It's really different in its application and outlook compared to SD's various styles. I'm not quitting SD (I'm in it for hte long haul to get those sweet drunken styles). But I hear their application work and chi kung is top-notch. I'm gonna go check them out this week. Location is convenient, and price is affordable.

Anyone else played with some outside schools?

[Shaolin Wookie]

Agreed. We all seem to agree as well that GM The adapted the material to his reflect his own take on the styles he learned. Different SD/CSC schools even have cirriculum/forms differences. But we're all bonded by Sin The. It would be nice to hear something from somebody else who learned from Great GM Ie Chang Ming.
.

It would also be interesting to see what certain forms look like without the The' brother influence, you know?

[Judge Pen]

Um....I'll call bullsh1t on this one. I would venture 50% or more are kids under 16, just like every other martial arts school on the planet.

Unless of course you have the stats to back it up.

WHITE EARP-
I can resize the photos for you. Send me a PM if you are interested and I'll supply an email address.

I don't think there are any official stats to support or deny this assertion (I may be wrong). I'll say that in my experience, most SD schools have approx. 1/3 of their enrollment under 16, but I can't quote you any official stats beyond the schools that I'm personally affiliated with.

[Flaca]

Um....I'll call bullsh1t on this one. I would venture 50% or more are kids under 16, just like every other martial arts school on the planet.

Unless of course you have the stats to back it up.

I thought those were stats. If they are anecdotal, KC is in a position to make those guesses, since he's been with SD for 13 years(?) in 3 states. What is the basis for your 'venture'?

SD schools are flourishing around the country, and are not 50% kids under 16 years old, as you suggest. Our school has a good kid's program, but it is probably 20% of the student population. And our adults are almost exclusively well educated professionals.

[BoulderDawg]

I doubt seriously that any study has ever been done to back up any of these "stats".

I do believe more educated people chose MA over, let's say, 24 hour fitness. The type of school doesn't really matter that much. In a given area you would probably find the same basic education levels at all the schools.

I don't believe that all the smart people go to this school but the dumb ones go to the other school. I think most decisions are made about what school to attend based on location and cost.

[brucereiter]

Okay....this will sound kind of funny: (b/c SD is the most comprehensive martial art in the WORLD!!! )

Anybody in SD currently cross-training in another style/system? I'm thinking of ditching either CSC's internal arts or external arts program (keeping one) for a while (not forever). I love it....but there's something else I'd like to explore right now. There's a Southern Mantis school in Atlanta that I'd like to try out which is more conducive to my schedule, and will give me pretty good instruction from what I hear (a Henry Poo Yee school). Plus, I've gotta admit, I've always been itching to get some good southern centerline practice. It's really different in its application and outlook compared to SD's various styles. I'm not quitting SD (I'm in it for hte long haul to get those sweet drunken styles). But I hear their application work and chi kung is top-notch. I'm gonna go check them out this week. Location is convenient, and price is affordable.

Anyone else played with some outside schools?

i would say stick with the internal stuff ... but as you can imagine i am biased in that direction :-) i have heard good things about henry poo yee :-) just be careful of "the grass is greener syndrome" ... but i think it is good to know what is out there to help you make the most informed decisions about your training :-)

yes i have done training outside of the school ... a lot of "rolling" with bjj people etc ...

[kwaichang]

It has been my observation having been in SD for a while. All I am saying is you people who write this stuff I say BS to you too. You are all Biased by what you have been told so lets look at the provable facts.
A. SD has been in the US since 1968 and earlier so I am told.
B. None of you have proven anything just hypothesis on your part.
C. Over 4000 students " what ever age " many are > 18 and can do research of Shaolin History.
D. SD has many many many similarities to other TCMA
E. Your opinions are just that and based upon what you have been told or taught which makes it not founded.
F. Many of you have only trained for a limited number of years and have not seen SD advanced forms

PS I feel the differences of the different people CSC SD Tennessee Atlanta Lexington is due to body types not GM The and how he taught a technique.
Hey Flaca did you get my PM PM me KC

[Judge Pen]

As BoulderDawg said, Most people chose a program based on location and cost. After that, is it a good work-out? Are the techniques fun and applicable? Do I like the class dynamic? Can I defend myself better than I could before the class? These are things the average person looking at a class thinks about. Honestly, most people, outside of those who have 1,000 + posts on KFO, couldn't care less about the accuracy of the history or lineage.

[Shaolin Wookie]

just be careful of "the grass is greener syndrome" ...

I'm not replacing anything (in the long run). I'm in review in the external program, and have made the decision to remain "in review" (strange state to be in) for a long while to come, despite the fact most people think I should "test up". I know I could, but I want the level of comfort with my material that I feel is necessary to warrant moving on...that is to say...more than anyone else at my level . Lots of students forget their material when they "test up", or it gets warped through lack of reptition. Ironically, "testing up" or upgrading in belt status often results in a marked "downgrading" in the former belt's form quality (at least, in the external program). I'm not trying to collect more forms (there aren't a lot in SPM), I just want to get instruction in their centerline and one-inch theories (and they're experts at infighting and drilling infighting--something we don't really get a lot of in CSC arts). As for my CSC material, it's just going to be a lot of reps for at least six months...minimum...(and my greatest revelations happen in personal practice). So I'm thinking I'll drop one of the programs and go study SPM for a while in tandem with CSC (it was the other school I was considering before joining the Do). No "grass is greener" stuff. Master Reid's grass is the "greenest." And it's schedule works perfectly for cross-training.

Honestly....I think it'll make me better in the long run.

[brucereiter]

Um....I'll call bullsh1t on this one. I would venture 50% or more are kids under 16, just like every other martial arts school on the planet.

Unless of course you have the stats to back it up.

.

hi there mk :-)

come visit the atlanta school some time ... i think you will find that about much smaller group of students under 16 years old ... we do have a strong kids program and it does help pay the bills but the school is not a daycare center for children ...

<<For Small-School Owners: Can You Survive Without Teaching Children?

Has your school become more like a day-care center than a martial arts training facility? Do you yearn to have a predominately adult student body? Master Gary Grooms shares his experience and philosophy of 17 years on how to attract and retain the mature client.


“Children aren’t that hard to outsmart. A school full of professional adults is not only difficult to outsmart, you shouldn’t even try to. You will probably have students who are brighter and more sophisticated than you are.”

“If your best sales approach is centered on how your style is the most effective method of self-defense, you may find it hard to attract adults who stay with you for extended periods of time.”

“Adults aren’t going to care about belts. The Black Belt Club may be great for kids, but the 45-year-old, female, corporate vice-president isn’t going to be motivated by the rank advancement. Using the belt as a carrot may backfire.”

“If you want to teach the professional, adult market you have to have an environment that fosters the mutual respect of a group of peers. Treat them like you’re the king and you may end up the pauper.”

“Going after the adult market isn’t for everyone. It’s a difficult balance, providing the training and motivation necessary to be successful in martial arts, while still realizing that these adults are paying your salary and are your customers.”


Nationwide, the vast majority of martial schools survive off of teaching large numbers of children. I recently heard that an estimated 52% of the people taking martial arts are children. My guess is that if you eliminate the cardio-karate adults and only count the people in traditional classes -- those learning actual forms, required to test, spar or do pushing hands and build a sizable knowledge base -- the number of children in martial arts classes is actually closer to 70%.
Can it be done the other way around? Can you have a school with 90% adults learning traditional martial arts and still be in business? For the last 17 years, that is exactly what I have done. The majority of my student body is professional, well-educated adults with an average age of 28-years-old.
When I meet most people for the first time and they find out that I own a martial arts school, their immediate assumption is that I teach children. It seems that their opinion of martial arts instructors is that we run day-care centers with a martial arts theme. It’s very difficult for most people to comprehend that I only have ten or 15 children.

Selling Principles
I was talking to a fellow school owner a few years ago and he was telling me about the great new sales techniques he learned from one of the martial arts business consulting groups. The sales technique revolved around how to get kids in the door and signed up to long-term contracts. Part of the process involved him eliminating the style he had grown up with and, instead, teaching a very basic, oversimplified system designed just for kids. This involved a ranking system that had more belts than material, so he could give a kid a new belt every two weeks. The kid got the belt whether he could do anything or not. All it took was attendance, not progress.
He was making a lot of money. He really thought I needed to jump on the kiddie bandwagon. I told him that if I couldn’t run my school the way I wanted, I would rather be back in corporate America. By his own admission, he was no longer teaching the art he knew and loved. He was just providing a service that would generate a good income, but it wasn’t really martial arts.

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