View Poll Results: What to do about the 'Is Shaolin-Do for real?' thread

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Thread: Is Shaolin-Do for real?

  1. #4786
    Every so often, I read some of the training and marketing materials that one of the many martial arts business consultants have developed. Usually, they are well-designed and would be beneficial for someone who had little or no business background. However, they all seem to say the same thing: high-pressure sales techniques to mom and dad about their wonderful, exceptional child. Most of these sales techniques will not attract a lot of professional adults who will stay with you for several years.

    The Baby Boomers
    So how do you tap into the adult Baby Boomers’ market? Some of the things you can’t do are play games, make false claims or be mystical. A professional adult is generally not going to buy into false hype.
    You have to have a product that appeals to a more mature adult market. The exact same curriculum and teaching methods used for eight-year-olds is not going to be suitable for 38-year-olds.
    You also need a professional sales approach. The hardcore, used-car salesman approach may sell some people. But often, when someone feels that they were pressured into committing to a long-term deal after only being with you a couple of weeks, from the start you have damaged your relationship with that person
    Adults aren’t going to care about belts. The Black Belt Club may be great for kids, but the 45-year-old, female, corporate vice-president isn’t going to be motivated by the rank advancement. She will likely be motivated by the new knowledge that will be offered her when she reaches the next rank, but the chance to tell her friends that she’s a green belt really isn’t a factor. This is not to say that adults don’t want a ranking system, it’s just that using the belt as a carrot may backfire.

    Long-Term Benefits
    When I decided that I wanted to become a full-time martial arts instructor, I didn’t really want to teach children, so I set out to do things a little differently. I intentionally marketed my school to adults. I try to appeal to people that are interested in health and longevity.
    All of us are asked the question, “Why should I take classes here?” I try to avoid saying much of anything about other schools or styles. I try and stick to discussing what long-term martial arts training can do for them. I don’t want to convince them that I can make them a “killer” in six months. If a person walks in because they really want self-defense skills and you tell them they can learn how to defend themselves in two weeks, why would they take classes for more any longer than that? I stress that the training will address the elements of conditioning in a way that nothing else does.
    It’s imperative that you communicate the health benefits and the need to take the time to take care of your health. I constantly preach that if you don’t take the time to take care of your health, you will eventually take the time for the hospital stay.
    This makes sense because many adults realize that hospitals are not filled with victims of random assaults, they are filled with victims of self-abuse. What I mean by self-abuse is a lack of disciplined health habits. A failure to follow a regime of proper diet and exercise leads to increased incidence of any health disorder you can name from heart disease to diabetes to cancer.
    I always say, “If you can’t defend yourself from yourself, don’t worry about the boogeyman in the bushes.” If you aren’t doing the things to take care of yourself with decent health habits, you will be the one that “injures” yourself.
    My average student is interested in what the training does for his or her physical and mental well-being, with the side benefit being they can more effectively defend themselves. Therefore, it is vitally important that you fully articulate the health benefits of martial arts training when you sell to adults.
    You have to have an adult-oriented outlook on martial arts training if you want to have adults in your class.

    Self-Defense Sales
    Adults may mention self-defense when they first come in, but if they are still with you five years later, they aren’t talking or even thinking about self-defense skills.
    If your best sales approach is centered on how your style is the most effective method of self-defense, you may find it hard to attract adults who stay with you for extended periods of time. (See the sidebar, “Master Gary’s Definition of ‘Being in Shape.’”)
    Realistically, we all know that the odds of an adult in a relatively affluent area becoming a victim of a random violent crime are extremely low. Intelligent adults understand that if they try to avoid trouble, they will most likely never need to defend themselves.
    Many adults will start training because they want self-defense skill, but they will either leave when they have learned a few techniques or their mindset will change. After all, how many of us are guilty of communicating that you can learn how to defend yourself in a very short time? If you offer quickie women’s self-defense seminars or two-week certifications for “reality” training, what are you saying about the need for internalization of the skills through years of practice? Most adults understand the difference between knowing how to defend yourself and actually being able to defend yourself.
    These short-term self-defense programs are like going to a weekend basketball camp and then thinking you can play with the pros in the NBA. I know how to play basketball, but if my life depended on my basketball skills, I would be in deep trouble. Adults will stay with you because they realize it takes a long time to actually develop self-defense skill -- and they know the importance of not letting those skills rust away from lack of practice. Or, they may stay with you because they enjoy the benefits they see and feel every day.

    Gaining Respect
    You cannot sell or teach the adult market the same way as children. Children are immediately impressed with the fact that you’re an adult, you’re bigger than they are and you have a black belt. To impress the 50-year-old CEO takes a little more. Your adults may be older than you and if you’re a smaller person like me, they will probably be bigger than you. If they stay around long enough, they may gain a similar rank to you. You may even have to live with the fact that some of your senior people could take you in a fight.
    Children aren’t that hard to outsmart. A school full of professional adults is not only difficult to outsmart, you shouldn’t even try to. You will probably have students who are brighter and more sophisticated than you are.
    Therefore, with adults, you have to gain their respect in very different ways. If you want to earn their respect, you must treat them with respect. Your environment must be professional. Professional adults expect to be treated like the customers they are. They expect the classes to start and finish on time and to have professional physical surroundings. Does your office look like their office? Or does it look like a flea market?
    Teenage instructors often teach a significant amount of martial arts classes. Professional adults will generally do better learning from people like themselves. A guy that’s used to managing a multimillion-dollar-a-year business may not enjoy taking commands from someone younger than his son.

    Journey versus Destination-Oriented Training
    Adult martial arts training needs to be about the journey, not the destination.
    My most senior student, Mike, is also an avid mountain climber. He has the same outlook on reaching the top of the mountain as he does towards martial arts. He climbs these 20,000-foot mountains with a group of people. Sometimes these groups have to come back down without reaching the summit for any variety of reasons, weather being the most likely. When this happens, most of the other climbers will be upset about not reaching the summit, complaining that they wasted three weeks and didn’t “get” anything for it. Mike’s outlook is that he likes to climb mountains; he enjoys the experience of being on the mountain. He certainly would have liked to have made it to the summit, but his time wasn’t wasted because he didn’t.
    This type of attitude is why he has been with me for over 16 years. People with his outlook make great long-term students; you just have to be able to sell to this type of person, and operate an environment that supports your retention of these types of people.
    While not every student that leaves is a failure on your part, some are. I contend that about one-third of your students will stay with you almost no matter what you do. Then there’s another third that’s going to leave no matter what you do. It’s the third that can be influenced either positively or negatively that are the challenge to keep. If you are truly turning over 100% of your student body every year, then you need to discover what you’re doing that drives students away.

    Older Adult Curriculum
    I started offering a comprehensive internal-training program several years ago. Our art always included a significant amount of internal training, such as tai-chi, pa-kua and hsing-i. But a student also had to take all the kung-fu forms in the curriculum. When I established an internal arts-only program, providing an opportunity for people to come in and learn tai-chi without having to take the other kung-fu styles, I started to attract an even older crowd.
    best,

    bruce

    Happy indeed we live,
    friendly amidst the hostile.
    Amidst hostile men
    we dwell free from hatred.

    http://youtube.com/profile?user=brucereiter

  2. #4787
    I made several mistakes early on. First, I had the tai-chi people wear whatever they wanted. We would formally bow in the kung-fu class and then I would step onto the other workout floor and grab the tai-chi group and just start teaching the form.
    I realized eventually that the tai-chi people were being treated as the ugly stepchild. The kung-fu students had uniforms, belts and an organized curriculum. The kung-fu students were referred to as the “regular” students. Which, I guess, meant the tai-chi people were the “irregular” students.
    When I finally realized I had unintentionally created two classes of students, I made a series of changes that took a couple of years to complete. First, we had the tai-chi people wear the same uniform as the kung-fu class. Next, we established a ranking system, using sashes instead of belts. Then we had both classes bow in together and sometimes we have them warm up together. We line up in descending rank order to start class, so now an internal student who has been active for about the same time as a kung-fu student, should have the same color sash as the kung-fu person’s belt, and they will line up next to each other.
    These changes, which removed the ugly stepchild, irregular student label from my internal students, have helped the program grow dramatically. The internal-program people are now treated with the same level of dignity and respect, with the same protocols as the kung-fu students.

    Uniforms and Belts
    Many “traditional” Chinese martial artists are hung up on the notion that “real” Chinese stylists don’t have rankings. My only comment on that is, if someone actually believes the way you organize your system and what you wear has any bearing on the value of the training, they will never understand the martial arts.
    Intelligent, professional adults don’t care about uniforms one way or the other. If you use a uniform or if you use a t-shirt, as long as there is some consistency most people will be happy. But, you won’t get a class of people in the age group of 35- to 55-years-old, with 50% of the class being female, if you make, say, spandex the uniform of choice.
    Going after the adult market isn’t for everyone. Just like going after the kid’s market isn’t for me. It’s a difficult balance, providing the training and motivation necessary to be successful in the martial arts, while still realizing that these adults are paying your salary and are your customer.
    If you want to teach the professional, adult market you have to have an environment that fosters the mutual respect of a group of peers. Treat them like you’re the king and you may end up the pauper.

    Master Gary Grooms began teaching martial arts in Atlanta in 1986. Currently, he oversees four licensees operating full-time schools as well as affiliated programs at the University of Georgia, Georgia Tech, Georgia Southern and a community center program in Rome, Georgia. He can be >>
    best,

    bruce

    Happy indeed we live,
    friendly amidst the hostile.
    Amidst hostile men
    we dwell free from hatred.

    http://youtube.com/profile?user=brucereiter

  3. #4788
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaolin Wookie View Post
    I'm not replacing anything (in the long run). I'm in review in the external program, and have made the decision to remain "in review" (strange state to be in) for a long while to come, despite the fact most people think I should "test up". I know I could, but I want the level of comfort with my material that I feel is necessary to warrant moving on...that is to say...more than anyone else at my level . Lots of students forget their material when they "test up", or it gets warped through lack of reptition. Ironically, "testing up" or upgrading in belt status often results in a marked "downgrading" in the former belt's form quality (at least, in the external program). I'm not trying to collect more forms (there aren't a lot in SPM), I just want to get instruction in their centerline and one-inch theories (and they're experts at infighting and drilling infighting--something we don't really get a lot of in CSC arts). As for my CSC material, it's just going to be a lot of reps for at least six months...minimum...(and my greatest revelations happen in personal practice). So I'm thinking I'll drop one of the programs and go study SPM for a while in tandem with CSC (it was the other school I was considering before joining the Do). No "grass is greener" stuff. Master Reid's grass is the "greenest." And it's schedule works perfectly for cross-training.

    Honestly....I think it'll make me better in the long run.
    -10 years and i am "only" a 2nd black sash :-) ... i think i will test in sept 07 though ...
    -"(and my greatest revelations happen in personal practice)" wise words! practice practice ... ... ... and you will discover ... ... ...
    -"Master Reid's grass is the "greenest." he is a fantastic teacher ... inspiring :-)
    -let us know how the training goes at the other school ...
    best,

    bruce

    Happy indeed we live,
    friendly amidst the hostile.
    Amidst hostile men
    we dwell free from hatred.

    http://youtube.com/profile?user=brucereiter

  4. #4789
    Join Date
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    Exclamation pics

    Well i posted the pictures with Sifu Decramer and the old guy.
    But he does wonder if it is indeed his father. He going to e-mail the guy to make sure .
    He is very enthousiastic about his finding on internet.

    here's the link:

    http://sport.marktplaats.nl/vechtspo...1eb6315260b0a5

    The black/white photo and then the old chinese guy. That's supposed to be him.

  5. #4790
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    Quote Originally Posted by BoulderDawg View Post
    Hmmmmm........So much for the pictures I guess.

    When I saw this post and the guy mentioned, "i allready feel a little bit of hostility here" I kinda knew there were no pictures.
    hey check the new post, more is coming up.
    I will build a site wich will come online in the next couple of weeks with loads of more pics.
    Doesn't your teacher teach you patients?
    Just check my post and click the link.

  6. #4791
    I'm lost. All I see is an advertisment for Kung Fu lessons.

    I see one black and white picture of a older man and a younger man and it's looks like they are doing some form of Mantis. Is this what you're talking about?

  7. #4792

    Post

    The black and white may be Ie..it is hard to tell. Looks like the are doing Tang Lang Chien though. The large man with the beard is NOT Ie though. And Ie was their Grandfather...not their father, or so the story goes.

  8. #4793
    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteEarp View Post
    Well i posted the pictures with Sifu Decramer and the old guy.
    But he does wonder if it is indeed his father. He going to e-mail the guy to make sure .
    He is very enthousiastic about his finding on internet.

    here's the link:

    http://sport.marktplaats.nl/vechtspo...1eb6315260b0a5

    The black/white photo and then the old chinese guy. That's supposed to be him.


    maybe you can put them up on http://photobucket.com/register.php
    it is fast and easy ... thanks for taking the time anyways ...
    Last edited by brucereiter; 02-01-2007 at 11:25 AM.
    best,

    bruce

    Happy indeed we live,
    friendly amidst the hostile.
    Amidst hostile men
    we dwell free from hatred.

    http://youtube.com/profile?user=brucereiter

  9. #4794
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
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    Lexington, Kentucky
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    1,113
    Quote Originally Posted by Fist of Death View Post
    The black and white may be Ie..it is hard to tell. Looks like the are doing Tang Lang Chien though. The large man with the beard is NOT Ie though. And Ie was their Grandfather...not their father, or so the story goes.
    Depends on who's telling the story.
    BQ

  10. #4795
    Have patience? They either have the pictures or they don't.

    However the picture in the advertisment looks like something that's been there for a while. Also, in the description of training he did not mention training with Master Ie.

    In any case, I know of no one that could verify that the man is Ie other than Sin The.

  11. boulderdawg there are new pics of ie in the new training manual.

    you can even ask master david or sharon yourself if you are so intent upon it.

  12. #4797
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    Quote Originally Posted by kungfujunky View Post
    boulderdawg there are new pics of ie in the new training manual.

    you can even ask master david or sharon yourself if you are so intent upon it.
    Jup and another thing:
    You're mistaken, the big guy on the other picture with the beard is Sifu Tze D Khan.
    He's a famous master in europe.

    And indeed it's hard to tell, he gave me the photos, wich i had to scan.
    I will upload more photos wich make it more clear.

    To warm you up:
    On one photo he's standing with the same old guy and what seems to be his family/relatives/friends or pupils, i can't make it out of the picture and neither does my master. It's with a painting of a big bird on the background. Now i recently heard that Le Chang Ming is not Sin's father. So that myth is busted, my Master was wondering if it was his father. But we still don't know if they are relatives or that Sin was just a student.
    My master didn't knew him very well, and in those days "it was not polite to question someone, or to ask questions to your master for that mather".

    Another photo is him with his entire class including Judoka Anton Geesink, whom won the Olympic Championships 1964 in Tokyo. I don't what this guy was doing there but he's still alive.

    If after viewing the other photos you still don't believe it then you can allways try to e-mail Anton Geesink and ask wether or not he was in Indonesia and knew Sifu Le Chang Ming.
    And offcourse you can allways try to check the Indonesian registries on Chinese imigrantes and so on and so on.
    Last edited by WhiteEarp; 02-10-2007 at 03:01 AM.

  13. #4798
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    On the usage of Gi's

    Another thing, On the use of Gi's and Japanese terms.
    Now, we don't use japanese terms in class or karate-like techniques for that mather. But we do wear a gi and use a belting system.
    Why is that?

    For starters:
    When the Chinese migrated to indonesia Chinese never thaught "kungfu" to foreigners. If they did, they didn't teach the "real stuff".
    Now some of the masters didn't mind teaching foreigners, hence Le Chang Ming. But to avoid problems and issues with other masters who didn't agree with that and the indonesian government(who i believe forbid the practice of al CMA that time)they began to wear japanese clothing and use a japanese rankingsystem.
    So they also begin to use japanese terms and karate like techniques when someone came to "take a look"

    The thing is, we learn to defend ourselves from "karate techniques" during basic training, but we never ever have karate techniques in our system. It's all strict CMA, So i to wonderd why SD uses some techniques and call the forms kata's. They say it's to remember the way it was in Indonesia.

    That's up to them. What i can say is: Yes, they do use real Shaolin southern techniques! Dispite de Do usage.

    But today if someone does not shave his head can make a split do highkicks in the air and wears orange suits it's not shaolin kungfu.

    Let me make something clear: Kung Fu is not about looking good in a fight, it's selfdefence inventend by small people for small people.
    "Good kungfu never looks good", remember Chris Crudelli anyone?
    Since when is wearing Chinese Clothing making you a true kung fu master or student for that mather? It seems to me that the masters who try to look "chinese" don't have much to offer and need some compensation for it.
    A true master doesn't worry about such superficial stuff, he wants to teach you something. And you want to be taught by him. (or her)
    And if he decides todo it in a Gi then so what? It's more practical, it can take a beating, it's tough clothing.
    And the belting system? Everybody needs motivation in the beginning.
    In Choy Li Fut they use color sashes, and in a lot of other "traditional" styles as wel, i hear everybody proclaim true traditional arts do not use color gradings, so Choy Li Fut and all the other traditional arts are also a fraud then?
    Last edited by WhiteEarp; 02-01-2007 at 05:13 AM.

  14. #4799
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    Mr. Earp,

    Out of curiosity, would you happen to be able to list some of the forms that your Master learned from Master Ie? I wonder if there are any common ones between the two schools.

    Welcome on board and have a nice stay.
    "Pain heals, chicks dig scars..Glory lasts forever"......

  15. #4800
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    Lexington, Kentucky
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteEarp View Post
    Another thing, On the use of Gi's and Japanese terms.
    Now, we don't use japanese terms in class or karate-like techniques for that mather. But we do wear a gi and use a belting system.
    Why is that?

    For starters:
    When the Chinese migrated to indonesia Chinese never thaught "kungfu" to foreigners. If they did, they didn't teach the "real stuff".
    Now some of the masters didn't mind teaching foreigners, hence Le Chang Ming. But to avoid problems and issues with other masters who didn't agree with that and the indonesian government(who i believe forbid the practice of al CMA that time)they began to wear japanese clothing and use a japanese rankingsystem.
    So they also begin to use japanese terms and karate like techniques when someone came to "take a look"

    The thing is, we learn to defend ourselves from "karate techniques" during basic training, but we never ever have karate techniques in our system. It's all strict CMA, So i to wonderd why SD uses some techniques and call the forms kata's. They say it's to remember the way it was in Indonesia.

    That's up to them. What i can say is: Yes, they do use real Shaolin southern techniques! Dispite de Do usage.

    But today if someone does not shave his head can make a split do highkicks in the air and wears orange suits it's not shaolin kungfu.

    Let me make something clear: Kung Fu is not about looking good in a fight, it's selfdefence inventend by small people for small people.
    "Good kungfu never looks good", remember Chris Crudelli anyone?
    Since when is wearing Chinese Clothing making you a true kung fu master or student for that mather? It seems to me that the masters who try to look "chinese" don't have much to offer and need some compensation for it.
    A true master doesn't worry about such superficial stuff, he wants to teach you something. And you want to be taught by him. (or her)
    And if he decides todo it in a Gi then so what? It's more practical, it can take a beating, it's tough clothing.
    And the belting system? Everybody needs motivation in the beginning.
    In Choy Li Fut they use color sashes, and in a lot of other "traditional" styles as wel, i hear everybody proclaim true traditional arts do not use color gradings, so Choy Li Fut and all the other traditional arts are also a fraud then?
    DITTO
    BQ

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