Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[brucereiter]

hey schools need to make money teachers need to pay for their families ... say 150 years ago in china for example a student might bring his teacher a bag of rice or a pigs leg or a chicken or a new farm tool etc etc ... this to me is no different than the way many schools support their teachers today in america ... ranking systems also serve as a way to make money ...

First of all, I want to make it clear that I was drawing no conclusions about the authenticity of your system.

hi hjm,

i did not take your comment as such nor did i think you were being rude:-)
you make legitimate questions and comments from one point of view ...

You did a google search for CMA/Kung Fu schools, and of course there are many Chinese Martial Art and Kung Fu schools which use a belt ranking system, because most have been forced to adapt to what people want.

how were most forced? of coarse many traditional cma people do not use ranking and do not like ranking ... i have no problem with that :-)

But, if the school is truely a TRADITIONAL Kung Fu school, they would not use a belt ranking system.

i do not see the logic there ... you are saying that all of the schools i listed are not traditional kung fu schools. (you state they do traditional styles but are not traditional kwoons)

Belts are considered something to be proud of, and a sign of your acheivement. Striving for pride is not something a Kung Fu man should do, and one's achievement should only be displayed through demonstrations of skill. That was the basic thinking behind the old Traditional Schools.

you can take my sash away and i will still have my skills ... :-)

I believe that if your looking for a peice of gratification so that you can show it to others/garner respect from your peers, you should not be practicing TCMA.

i agree 100% for me "rank" is a personal achievement that has nothing to do with my training peers. it is only a measure of my own progress in the curriculum ...
i do know that i put in thousands of hours of practice to reach the rank i am at and some others who are at the same rank did not put in those hours and do not have the same understanding but i am not in a race with other students ... so it does not matter to me :-)

Now, this is where you misinterpreted me. Just because you take a traditional STYLE, and add belts to it, does not make the STYLE ITSELF non-traditional. It makes the KWOON non-traditional.

i dont follow? whos tradition are you speaking about? how long does something need to be done for it to be a tradition?
what is traditional?

I'm not saying that you, personally, use the belt as a symbol to garner respect. But I can see no other purpose for it.

i dont take anything personally on internet forums :-)
in my opinion a belt/sash is used to measure what part of the curriculum you have "learned" the basics of. it is not a measure of skill or ability to apply the concepts of your art.
some schools have a set curriculum that all students follow and to keep track of where you are it is easy to use a ranking system.

I've heard it argued that the belt allows new students to recognize older ones. However, if you had a proper kwoon, everyone would know each other and would not need such symbols to identify each other's skill.

"proper" ... i think you might misunderstand how belts/sashs are used and viewed in some schools.

The only person who deserves unearned respect is your Sifu.

why would a sifu deserve "unearned" respect.

ability to apply the content of your art is more important than rank :-)

[NJM]

i dont follow? whos tradition are you speaking about? how long does something need to be done for it to be a tradition?
what is traditional?

What I meant was, if belts are introduced, the style itself is still traditional. Meaning, that the sets and moves and application and techniques obviously are still traditional. The school itself, which refers to the method by which the instructor administrates his kwoon, would not be traditional. In traditional schools, belts were not used.

My point was that even if your school has a non-traditional ranking system, it doesn't effect what you actually learn.

I wasn't using "school" to mean the style, as in "school of training called Hung Gar." I meant it as in "School of training under Sifu _____"

[tattooedmonk]

What I meant was, if belts are introduced, the style itself is still traditional. Meaning, that the sets and moves and application and techniques obviously are still traditional. The school itself, which refers to the method by which the instructor administrates his kwoon, would not be traditional. In traditional schools, belts were not used.

My point was that even if your school has a non-traditional ranking system, it doesn't effect what you actually learn.

I wasn't using "school" to mean the style, as in "school of training called Hung Gar." I meant it as in "School of training under Sifu _____"

Tradition comes from the latin word traditio meaning to hand over or pass down. Having a belt ranking system is part of a new and different tradition . It does not make it any less "traditional " because it is used. I see this view as being shallow and non intrinsic. Nor does the uniform , the terminology/ language, or any of the outward appearances or physical/ symbolic rituals ,because of variation, make it any less traditional. What makes it traditional or not is whether it is taught, learned, and practice the same way for multiple generations. With all the same discipline , honor , respect , and loyalty,

[brucereiter]

What I meant was, if belts are introduced, the style itself is still traditional. Meaning, that the sets and moves and application and techniques obviously are still traditional. The school itself, which refers to the method by which the instructor administrates his kwoon, would not be traditional. In traditional schools, belts were not used.

My point was that even if your school has a non-traditional ranking system, it doesn't effect what you actually learn.

I wasn't using "school" to mean the style, as in "school of training called Hung Gar." I meant it as in "School of training under Sifu _____"

ok :-) ... what kind of training do you do?

[Baqualin]

This is a mistaken term for the literal meaning. Calling someone uncle, sister, or what relative title is given to someone in China in which you hold in high regard, who is close to your family. It is quite possible that after an extended period of time that Sin and Hiang came to be known as his grandsons or he their grandfather.

This is also correct....good to hear from you TTM
BQ

[BoulderDawg]

hey schools need to make money teachers need to pay for their families ... say 150 years ago in china for example a student might bring his teacher .....a pigs leg ... this to me is no different than the way many schools support their teachers today in america ...

I think I'm going to carry a canned ham over to the school next week and give it to Master Sharon. That should square us for the rest of the year!

[brucereiter]

I think I'm going to carry a canned ham over to the school next week and give it to Master Sharon. That should square us for the rest of the year!

i thought they were vegan :-) lol ...

[kwaichang]

Geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeez What A Waste. Kc

[godzillakungfu]

I think I'm going to carry a canned ham over to the school next week and give it to Master Sharon. That should square us for the rest of the year!

Yes, I hope they can safely remove you from the can.

[Shaolin Wookie]

But, if the school is truely a TRADITIONAL Kung Fu school, they would not use a belt ranking system. Belts are considered something to be proud of, and a sign of your acheivement. Striving for pride is not something a Kung Fu man should do, and one's achievement should only be displayed through demonstrations of skill. That was the basic thinking behind the old Traditional Schools. I believe that if your looking for a peice of gratification so that you can show it to others/garner respect from your peers, you should not be practicing TCMA..

No offense, dude...but that's kind of false. Kung-fu is noted for its pride...almost every highly-regarded "traditional" teacher in the US has had some falling out with his Sifu's other high-ranking students over inheritance to the tradition....and over stylistic differences, or personal differences. Also, Masters sometimes reveal certain "secrets" to certain students, meaning the knowledge is not spread to everyone democratically. Many traditional schools have been seriously fractured due to this "secret" stuff--wing chun is a prime example.

I understand where you're coming from....but idealistic points-of-view are really nothing more than that. It's not uncommon to find humility in the kung-fu world...but it's certainly not uncommon to find more pride in traditional schools. Why? Because they'll maintain that they're pure and untouched, while everyone else is watered-down. That's certainly a statement stemming from pride. (But it's also good for marketing.....gotta pay for the school, somehow.)

As for the belt thing.....with so many students coming in and dropping out...it becomes necessary to give one a perspective of where he stands in the long andshort of it. Okay, maybe teh Chinese didn't use belt ranking systems. The Japanese did. Personally, I think the Japanese were ahead of the game with that one. I never felt pride in my belt....but I felt pride in the accomplishment and effort I had put forward to earn that honor. Note: if you were not proud of what you were doing...you wouldn't be doing it. Pride has two connotations: ego and self-respect. Martial arts are about self-respect, in a lot of ways. I'm proud of my work ethic. I'm proud of the amount of time I put into practice. I'm proud of my understanding of my material. I'm not proud of what color dye was used to make my belt--as that seems utterly ludicrous. Belts help hold up the pants and provide support--they do have a function besides rank. I don't frame my old belts and put them on a wall. In fact, I use them to tie my numerous weapons together for easier transport... Pride can be a good thing, so long as it's not attached to Ego.

I used to take some Okinawan Karate from a dude in Atlanta...he taught in a rec center off of Peachtree-Dunwoody. He had a black belt. He was also one of the most humble men I've ever met. He was strict on traditional observances....bowing, sensei...etc. But he never demanded respect because of his belt color. He earned it by teaching the material very well (and for a very modest price, I might add). JApanese systems use belt ranks...and their civilization/culture is noted for its pride...but many karate guys are the most humble men I've ever met.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Also....even traditional masters wore belts and sashes...

Or we'd all be doing our forms pantless.

[kwaichang]

Are Ranking Systems in Martial Arts Actually Detrimental?

The Origins of Ranking Systems
Originally Kung Fu, Karate and other martial arts didn’t use ranking systems (colorful belts or sashes to denote a student’s skill level). Since I will be testing for my brown sash next week, I thought this would be an interesting topic to explore. The popular view of ranking is that it is a ‘western’ idea. However this is an inaccurate assumption. If Wikipedia, All-Karate.com are correct, ranking was used well before these martial arts were brought to the west (before Europe began populating the west even). This article attributes the colored belt system to Judo. Actually, in the Rank section of the Wikipedia entry for Karate, Judo is also credited as originating the belt system used by Karate. Shotokan Karate is mentioned as one of the originators, and is one of the primary schools of Karate in Japan - as you can see, this is not a ‘westernized’ school of Karate.

This idea of ranking systems being a ‘western’ thing, may actually originate in martial arts that have only recently begun to use them. But is this a sign that the ‘west’ is destroying martial arts? In the old days of Kung Fu, training was passed along family lines, thus there was no need to use ranking systems.

Martial Arts Today
I think it is ridiculous to term what has happened to martial arts as ‘westernized’. I don’t think it has anything to do with location. Is the commercialization of the Shaolin Temple the fault of the ‘west’? I will deal more with cultural philosophy etc in later articles, but now that Kung Fu is no longer hidden secrets passed from one family member to another, ranking systems make sense as a means of allowing students to train in groups of comparable skill.

Are Ranking Systems Harmful?
Why all the discussion about ranking systems? First, every system differs, even among the same martial art style. Every teacher (I say teacher, since we are discussing many different styles - with different terms for their instructors etc) is slightly different. I can understand the pressure. Martial arts schools must be profitable to keep their doors open, and some students view their training as a service. They are looking for an experience that lives up to their possibly romanticized idea of their given martial art. It is a balance between working the students hard, and yet not driving them all away.

The possible harm that I can see in ranking systems is their distraction from the truly important goals of training. This comes back to why a student is there in the first place. Are we training in order to race through the ranks to achieve the almighty black sash / belt, or are we there for deeper reasons? I think that ranking opens students up to thinking more about achieving their next level than about thoroughly learning the techniques and teachings of their given art. But then again, moving up through the various levels of training does give one a sense of accomplishment. This could end up becoming ego, but not necessarily.

The fact of the matter is, ranking systems are here with us. We are responsible for our own training, so ultimately the value or disadvantage of ranking systems lies in your hands, as students.
I found this and thought it was interesting KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

He just seems to be talking, but he doesn't really say anything.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Yang Jwing Ming once said you should always have a belt tied about the waist in order to provide some support.....so I think it has a physical function as well.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Besides....they kind of look cool when they're long enough (I always have perfect belt flap droopage w/ a size 5).