Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Lamassu]

I don't know your current rank, but the lower leveled belt ranks (white-green) only take 2-3 months, and the three brown belt ranks take 6 months each, and once you get your black belt, that's when it takes years. If I were you, I would "give in to the machine" and start progressing through the ranks. The reason I say this is because one, it'll get you that much closer to 8 Immortals. Two, you should have a wide range of the basics, and that's all the colored belt material is: basics! And three, by the time you get your black belt, while keeping the intensity of training that you currently have it at, you'll be shooting through ALL of your colored belt material with such precision, power and speed that you'll complete them before you even complete a thought. I'm not kidding! Don't worry about perfecting what you know now, you'll do them enough times that by year 6 of your training, you won't even be consiously thinking about what you're doing as you're doing them. I've never met you in person, but from what I can gather from your posts, you're a serious student with MUCH potential. Don't let your frustrations distract you from your training, instead channel your frustration into your training and thus train all the harder. That's what I had to do, and for god's sake TEST!!!

[Shaolin Wookie]

I might just up and say, screw it....I'll go someplace else for 2 years but still review my SD stuff, and if I feel I'm better after those 2 years of intro material at the new school, I'll go that route. If not, I'll come back and earn that black belt. But I'll never buy a colored belt. Not on my watch. And I stand by that standard. I'm nothing, if not stubborn.

Sun de Yao's Plum Blossom mantis is enticing....but extreeeeemly inconvenient, and not as time-intesive......

It'll be a big sacrifice for a guy working 2 jobs, planning on grad school..........whereas SD is veeeery convenient, and very time-intensive (more time in kwoon)......

[Lamassu]

Of course you'll review till you die, that's precisely what I'm doing. But dude, you're only one belt level away from learning Drunken forms! That reminds me, have you expressed your interest in 8 Immortals to your Master? He's the one you should be talking with about your concerns and goals in SD. Also, pester the hell out of him with your questions about practical applications in any given form you're learning. I would constantly ask practical applications questions to both Sifu Sean and Master Schaefer, and their input would get the mental gears turning as I focus on what exactly I'm doing and why I'm doing it. Feel free to pm me for your questions in practicle applications as well. As for Xia's questions, I can answer them too: 1. CMA community is a dog eat dog world here in the U.S. and Shaolin Do is just is a favored punching bag. Look at your "KungFu/Tai Chi" magazine and "Inside Kungfu" magazines, the articles submitted are nothing more than commercials for the style the author belongs to, so of course they toot their own horn. and 2: variances in Tiger/Crane? So what forms don't evolve and change over time as they're passed on from teacher to student? Let's not forget that, regardless of which murky history is least inaccurate, the form has been spread out all through China and now even the world, so differences in forms are inevitable.

[Yao Sing]

20+ forms in how many years? 3 or 4 or am I confusing you with someone else.

20 forms in 4 years is 5 per year which is way too much IMO unless they're really short.

Anyhow, just do what you feel is right at your own pace. Just say no to the next form if you don't feel ready to move on to something else.

I would say take advantage of what's available to you at the moment rather than pushing for a specific form or material. An opportunity for 8 Immortals might come up later on in your life or your situation might change allowing you to train with Sifu Troy Dunwood in CA.

[Lamassu]

Actually, the forms are short... in the beginning. They grow longer and more intense as the student progresses. Also, the 20+ forms aren't all just open hand, half are weapons, and yes, those at low belt levels are short and simple. You have to learn how to crawl before you can do triple back flips if you take my meaning.

[kwaichang]

Well you have trained for 2 years at 3 hours a day for 365 x 2= 730 x 3 = 2190 total. well I guess if that is accurate you have a right to ask your questions.
But those who have trained 30 years in SD for just 2 hours 5x per week might disagree.
You have to pay your dues in anything to get what you want from it. Personally I dont think you have. IMO. You are young I guess so try dedicating your self to learn for 10 more years then decide, that will make you a 3rd or 4th BB. Maybe.
SD aside I would not accept you as a student if you wont show anymore dedication and time than you have . You appear wishy washy to me. I am not saying these things to offend you just My Opinion. KC

[sean_stonehart]

Wookie... Check your PMs...

[Judge Pen]

20+ forms in how many years? 3 or 4 or am I confusing you with someone else.

20 forms in 4 years is 5 per year which is way too much IMO unless they're really short.

Anyhow, just do what you feel is right at your own pace. Just say no to the next form if you don't feel ready to move on to something else.

I would say take advantage of what's available to you at the moment rather than pushing for a specific form or material. An opportunity for 8 Immortals might come up later on in your life or your situation might change allowing you to train with Sifu Troy Dunwood in CA.

The "long forms" at that level are really short. That's something most overlook when making the SD forms argument. CMA forms typically tend to be very long. Most of the forms taught at the lower levels of SD are a minute or less forms. Some of them are a portion of a larger form.

SW, I'm impressed by Master Sin not because he impresses my teachers (whom have my utmost respect in their skill), but because of what he is still able to do at his age. When he taught the 2nd road of the Golden Leopard he did every move of the form with us. It's not an easy form for me at 32, but the man's in his middle 60s. He's not going to blow you away with his form at that age, but he will impress you with his energy and desterity at that age. And he's very approchable and friendly (if you can wade through some of the doe-eyed butt-kissers that will swarm him). He's really down to earth and humble in person.

And you mentioned kuntao and dethousas(SP?) and I want to point one more thing out. I've been told from a well-respected kuntao practitioner that tall tales and exageration are prevelant in Indonesian based martial arts (dethoursas is an example) but the fighting applicaiton and skill are what you should judge those arts.

And the tweaking of forms will happen anywhere. My teachers have their tweaks and I even have mine. Look at any MA with several branches and you will find differences in the core forms taught at each of the branches. Don't get too caught up in the differences of forms from school to school. Think of it as "alternatives" or "perspectives" that have their own applications worked into the differences.

[kwaichang]

Look Man if I offended you sorry. I am just calling it as I see it from what you have written and stated. It would be a shame if you left the system you might be a good , dedicated teacher. As far as training methods go I think SD is a result of peoples egos changing the original dream of what should have been partly due to the depth of the knowledge and material contained in it.
If you do not like the "training methods" you could be the start of a great and new thing. KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

'ppreciate it KC....I think I get what you're saying as I re-read your posts.

We'll see how it all works out....or doesn't.....

[Shaolin Wookie]

I got into MA because I had harmonized my personal philsophy with Taoism and Buddhism...especially Zen...and knew there were physical exercises associated with these philosophies (I weight trained and ran distance....but was looking for something more.....and kung fu seemed like the way). I believe it is the way.

But once you get into it, it is also about the applicability of the material....and do I think I have command over that....

I'm considering several alternatives....but it will all hinge on whtat I see on March 9th....I guess....

[Yao Sing]

You are young I guess so try dedicating your self to learn for 10 more years then decide,

Advice like that always seems right until your really think about it. He might be young and have a bit more time to spare than someone older but do you really expect him to spend 10 years in a style before making a decision about it?

Then what? Go somewhere else for 10 years and then decides that one not right for him? Hopefully for him 3rd time's a charm because at 40 he's already wasted his prime on styles that didn't suit hem.

And how much do you get out of something you're not sure about?

It really doesn't take years to figure out a styles isn't right for you. Most figure that out the first month. If you stay 5 or more years it must be working for you.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Ten years is a long time to spend in something I'm already not sure about. The PT, stance training, waist movement, and striking are uniform throughout CMA....with some differences....so SD has already given me a good foundation in the basics. I have a sense of what the animals are about--4 tigers, 4 cranes, 2 mantis, 4 Shaolin Birds, 1 Leopard (March 9th).........weapons: Monkey king staff, bo, nunchaku, sword, daggers, stick, short stick, kwan dao.....and then the internal.....and Crazy Mad Drunk (my fav.... ...but not an 8 Immortals form.)

It's a lot, man. I don't wanna gloss over anything.....and I love those techs and don't wanna lose 'em like some do....and I want more out of them. I guess I'd just like to make the best of what I have, and do so right now, rather than later.

Here's a fitting metaphor: When I'm reading War and Peace, I don't stop a quarter of the way through the book, and then pick up Anna Karenina in order to get a better understanding of War and PEace. It might improve my understanding of Tolstoy, but War and Peace would still be a mystery to me....

If I were to practice these the for the next ten years, I'd probably be better than if I moved on and received 10 more.....long or short.....

[kwaichang]

10 years isnt that long in CMA life. I thought you guys are the traditionalists, what happened to dedication and seeking knowledge. I was just feeding Madelyn and discovered a new technique for a part of Ching Kan Fu Hu Chien it is awesome . THATS WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT, YEAH!!!. And BTW over 40 isnt that bad I can do anything I want flexibility or otherwise. KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

Yes.....but....

10 years of training SD might not be worth 1 year training something else.

Who knows unless you try?
I learned a ****load about ground defense in just a month of BJJ.......

But just enough to know I don't want to dish out the requisite cash in order to train in that exclusively.