Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[KungFu Student]

"Here's the skinny of it. I don't like the advancement system--I think it's too easy for some slackers to advance. I understand the business aspect of the school, believe me I do. But it makes me wonder if it's the right place for me, as an individual. Everyone asks me why I don't advance....I say, remembering a form is not "knowing" a form. They seem kind of bewildered by my reply. That always surprises me."

S.W., I know what you are talking about. I have seen what I consider "posers" testing and not know the material as well as they should. And it used to bother me. When I came to the understanding that their advancement, sometimes past me, has nothing to do with how good of a student I am, then things were all right. Some students seem to pick up the movements faster than me, and that is ok. It takes me a while to get the form down, and I work on it until I get it right. I am particularly bad about busting short kata's out fast and powerful. But those who move on, without truly understanding what they are studying, will have it come back to bite them later on.
My Master is running a business, and tests people who meet the requirements. However, I believe that he can tell the people who are in it because it is "cool" and those who are in it for the long haul. I mean, I waited almost five months before I even tested for my first Tai Chi sash. But in the end, he told me that he could tell I put in some hard work, and never has a issue with people who put in the extra time. Why should he? That just shows him dedication to the art.
I hope you figure out what road you want to travel. If it is with S.D. then great. If not, the choice is yours. But in the end, the road you travel is yours alone, and you should not let others tell you what road to take, they can just offer directions.

[Baqualin]

[QUOTE=The Xia;738732]
So are you saying that Sin The's way of telling people that he wants to spend some time alone is announcing that he is going to achieve immortality through a sensory depravation tank?

Come on Xia your picking at words here....I already told you GMS is using the sensory depravation tank for mediation purposes.

No your not arrogant....you've made your observations on what you've heard and seen......no one has provided you with any information to change your opinion so far.....I have no problems with your post, the're always very logical & sometimes funny, but your running the sensory tank into the ground.
BQ

[Baqualin]

Just understand that SD has been a subject on this forum as long as this forum has existed... This is nothing new. Some people have become callous in talking to others about it over time.
It does seem however, that the overwhelming majority of SD students who still believe whole heartedly in it and its capabilities, do not have much experience in "combat arts".
I left SD for Shuai Chiao, BJJ, and Muay Thai.
Its harder on the body, but for fighting, its more real.
I can simply equate it with learning to cook reading cook books without ever firing up the stove. Maybe you looked at your pots and pans, even tasted the sugar... But understanding how it all works together in action is integral to success.
What you study will however, at least keep you healthy, both mentally and physically. (So long as you continue to love what you do)
And in all honesty, if you believe in what you do, and enjoy it, does it really matter what people on an internet forum have to say?
And a CMA forum for f*cks sake? Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
Half the people here are working just as hard to become a level 14 wizard as they are at learning to fight.
(Lightning bolt!)

Where did you obtain your SD experience at??
BQ

[kwaichang]

You know guys some of you make these blanket statments about people who train in SD. Like many who are "believers" of SD have not done "real" combat arts. etc etc. Well Bull , those who train in the "MMA" {mixed up martial arts} seem to forget that most of the guys there have done "Traditional" MA for a long time. Like wise : since we arent pulling punches here, I have to agree with BQ as it were , when the going gets tough : the tough get going. In other words it is harder to train consistently in a Martial art that is like SD or Hung Gar or White Crane etc than the MMA BS. Lets define kick boxing ok: conditioning 4-5 kicks and boxing . There you have it. In a nut shell. It is much more difficult to Master a classical art where things take time to master or they work easily. thats where the art comes in.
So in a nut shell PEOPLE ARE BASICALLY LAZY AND LOOK FOR THE EASY WAY OUT. Much like those Brown belts / sashes who want to change and find their satori through the constant change so they can remain the enlightened White Belt and thus feed their EGO. Those who use excuses to change are simply too lazy to try and continue so they are the ego awe of the new school. KC

[Meat Shake]

Where did you obtain your SD experience at??
BQ

San Antonio, TX.

Kwaichang-
Are you saying that MMA is easy, and kung fu is much more difficult?

[Mas Judt]

How is MMA BS?

Look, by traditionalists, I'd be classified as a traditionalist. By MMA guys, I'm a MMA guy. Fighting is fighting.

Good MMA is HARD WORK. Heck, High School wrestlers work out harder and against more resistance than most 'martial artists.'

The fact is... and this is hard for a lot of people: most 'traditional' schools s@ck. It's true. It's always been true. Most 'traditional' schools don't practice real fighting, don't know they don't, or just don't understand how to really prepare for it. That being said, a good 'traditional school' can offer some great stuff - as long as it hasn't devolved into 'Society for Creative Anachronism' dedicated to preserving outdated war arts.

Meat Shake is correct. Heck Seven star came to a San Da seminar I gave years ago. He showed me his stuff. I felt bad, but i had to reccommend the Muay Thai & Judo, because his CMA options s@cked where he lived.

Fighting is fighting.

Now, it is tue that certain CMA do involve a much greater effort to develop the specific shen fa of the system. But in SD's case it is just memorizing a bunch of forms devoid of the original intent. So, I'd be wary of Meat Shake.

[Baqualin]

Where did you obtain your SD experience at??
BQ

San Antonio, TX.
I thought you all did some ground fighting there?
Kwaichang-
Are you saying that MMA is easy, and kung fu is much more difficult?

Getting your ass kicked is never easy.....what I think KC may be saying is it takes alot longer to effectively learn how to use the higher level techniques in chinese kung fu (most people never do) than the basic stuff you learned in two years of SD (kick & punch) and in the techniques used in most all competition fighting. And by the way we have SD people out there fighting in the cage and doing quite well...they love it when they get sh!t before they get in the ring. And some of us cross train with ground stylist or even Tai Chi Masters. H#ll even KC's training is as much other styles as SD....JP gets out there and goes a round or 2
Bottom line is what's best for you......everyone is different.....if you want to ring fight then train to ring fight....if you want to learn an ancient martial ART
then train for that.

By the way your very young now and can still fly....when your fifty Tai Chi will look alot different to you and when you look at the ring or mat you will hurt all over

[Baqualin]

How is MMA BS?

Look, by traditionalists, I'd be classified as a traditionalist. By MMA guys, I'm a MMA guy. Fighting is fighting.

Good MMA is HARD WORK. Heck, High School wrestlers work out harder and against more resistance than most 'martial artists.'

The fact is... and this is hard for a lot of people: most 'traditional' schools s@ck. It's true. It's always been true. Most 'traditional' schools don't practice real fighting, don't know they don't, or just don't understand how to really prepare for it. That being said, a good 'traditional school' can offer some great stuff - as long as it hasn't devolved into 'Society for Creative Anachronism' dedicated to preserving outdated war arts.

Meat Shake is correct. Heck Seven star came to a San Da seminar I gave years ago. He showed me his stuff. I felt bad, but i had to reccommend the Muay Thai & Judo, because his CMA options s@cked where he lived.

Fighting is fighting.

Now, it is tue that certain CMA do involve a much greater effort to develop the specific shen fa of the system. But in SD's case it is just memorizing a bunch of forms devoid of the original intent. So, I'd be wary of Meat Shake.

Not all SD schools just work on memorizing forms
The rest I agree with....If you want to fight competition you have to train for it or get your butt handed to you....strongest, fastest, bigest will win no matter the style.

[kwaichang]

? How Is MMA BS. You have answered it , it is just about fighting.
? to you. Do you think you train realistically ? Do you go to the street and test your skill ??
I think not.
Is MMA easy ? Yes. It is 70 % conditioning and 30 % skill. If you are in good shape for the ring you will win. Skill means winning when you have skill regardless of conditioning.
I speak from experience when I say this.
Kung fu traditionally taught is harder, if it is done right.
Why ? It involves the brain as well as the body. Example is Go Rin No Sho, The Art of War . Both Combat thesis but neither talk much about conditioning and mostly about Technique , strategy and Mind . Who of you have fought for real or has it been just sport. KC

[Yao Sing]

*sigh*

You're right, by striking back at those that attack SD with no basis to do so, who even think that it's nothing more than a series of websites on the net, or gloss over what's stated in those websites with over generalization, or criticize it's technique without even experiencing it first hand... aren't I the heel to think less of those who think less of me and mine?

No, you were striking back at those that didn't tow the SD party line and YOU didn't like what you were reading and I'm calling you on it. All the SD peeps pretty much told him to stick it out except for The Xia and myself.

Either show me where I "attack SD with no basis to do so", "think that it's nothing more than a series of websites on the net", "criticize it's technique without even experiencing it first hand" or apologize for mischaracterizing my comments.

Man up or be the typical Internat a$$hole. Your choice.

I read about the system, read what people said about it, and have watched SDers doing forms. I guess I'm arrogant for forming an opinion based on that.

Yeah, you haven't spent 10 years in the system so who are you to make a judgement?

[brucereiter]

? How Is MMA BS. You have answered it , it is just about fighting.
? to you. Do you think you train realistically ? Do you go to the street and test your skill ??
I think not.
Is MMA easy ? Yes. It is 70 % conditioning and 30 % skill. If you are in good shape for the ring you will win. Skill means winning when you have skill regardless of conditioning.
I speak from experience when I say this.
Kung fu traditionally taught is harder, if it is done right.
Why ? It involves the brain as well as the body. Example is Go Rin No Sho, The Art of War . Both Combat thesis but neither talk much about conditioning and mostly about Technique , strategy and Mind . Who of you have fought for real or has it been just sport. KC

hi kc,

i went to a pro mma fight last weekend. i saw a lot of skill specifically from nissen osterneck and from micah miller. i think both of those fighters have great conditioning and great "sensitivity" and great understanding of how the body works. lots of skill was shown. not just conditioning ... on the other hand i saw fighters who were just thugs with a lot of muscle beating on each other. i dont think you can generalize any art. it is the individual not the system they choose :-)

[Meat Shake]

Hehehe... Where to start...

"And by the way we have SD people out there fighting in the cage and doing quite well..."

Who? What venues?

" ? How Is MMA BS. You have answered it , it is just about fighting.
? to you. Do you think you train realistically ? Do you go to the street and test your skill ??"

Actually... Ive lived downtown in Minneapolis without a car for the last 2 years. Go online and look at the crime rate. Every 2 weeks there are between 6-20 violent crimes in within the 4 square mile radius between my place and CPA's. Not to mention the few nights stumbling home drunk across an empty downtown at 3 am...

"Is MMA easy ? Yes. It is 70 % conditioning and 30 % skill. If you are in good shape for the ring you will win. Skill means winning when you have skill regardless of conditioning."
This is just a statement of pure delusion... Nice statistics btw. How many times have you seen an immaculately healthy man get taken down by some tub of sh!t with large hulking man boobs? Plenty. Skill without conditioning is like having bullets with no gun.

As I said, if you are just interested in getting in shape, SD is great. So is Tai Chi. Tai Chi because of the breath focus is even good for your brain. Doesnt mean they make you a good fighter. Fighting does.

[John Many Jars]

my teacher sr master grooms earned his first degree black belt under the soards when he lived in denver and learned almost everything from 1st to 2nd Black from them. Everything else with a couple of exceptions he got directly from grandmaster the'.

Well, he can't be all bad if he lived in Denver. j/k

Thanks for the info. I've only heard the Atlanta school mentioned once in class by a student who said the schools weren't connected and his web site never listed the Soards as his instructors.


You know, a bullet doesn't have to be shot out of a gun to poke somebody's eye out.

I'll probably get slammed from both sides for this but because of the way we train (at least at my school), the majority of students won't become great fighters, most likely not even good. I think they'll probably become better fighters than they were but not great. There are always exceptions and I see most of those exceptions in the higher ranks. Time definately seems to have its advantages in this art.

I haven't fought in pro or amatuer venues or (knock on wood) been in a street fight, so I can't back my statements up in that respect. But some of my classmates and I put the gloves on fairly regularly and up the intensity and speed at which we spar and I do see a lot of growth there. Maybe not as much or as fast as people training boxing, MT, wrestling or any other full contact sport but there definately is some there.

Just my 2 cents.


-So I don't give the wrong impression, there isn't a student at my school I can think of that I don't respect for the time and effort they've put into this art.

[Baqualin]

Hehehe... Where to start...

"And by the way we have SD people out there fighting in the cage and doing quite well..."

Who? What venues?

" ? How Is MMA BS. You have answered it , it is just about fighting.
? to you. Do you think you train realistically ? Do you go to the street and test your skill ??"

Actually... Ive lived downtown in Minneapolis without a car for the last 2 years. Go online and look at the crime rate. Every 2 weeks there are between 6-20 violent crimes in within the 4 square mile radius between my place and CPA's. Not to mention the few nights stumbling home drunk across an empty downtown at 3 am...

"Is MMA easy ? Yes. It is 70 % conditioning and 30 % skill. If you are in good shape for the ring you will win. Skill means winning when you have skill regardless of conditioning."
This is just a statement of pure delusion... Nice statistics btw. How many times have you seen an immaculately healthy man get taken down by some tub of sh!t with large hulking man boobs? Plenty. Skill without conditioning is like having bullets with no gun.

As I said, if you are just interested in getting in shape, SD is great. So is Tai Chi. Tai Chi because of the breath focus is even good for your brain. Doesnt mean they make you a good fighter. Fighting does.

Most of us are not calling MMA BS If you train to fight all out full contact no matter your style you will be a good fighter...if you don't train to fight that way you will not....it really has nothing to do with style....it's what you train for....it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out. Yes the're good fighters in SD and like anyother MA including MMA the're ones that suck.
You guys are arguing over nothing.

[BoulderDawg]

I'll probably get slammed from both sides for this but because of the way we train (at least at my school), the majority of students won't become great fighters, most likely not even good. I think they'll probably become better fighters than they were but not great. There are always exceptions and I see most of those exceptions in the higher ranks. Time definately seems to have its advantages in this art.

The honest to god truth about it is that we receive no training. During the time that the Soards were away we did not even spar for three months. Even now we've lucky if we do it once a week.

Even then it's "Grab your sparring equipment.........spar". So we dance around for a few minutes and thats about it. We have also done some silly stuff such as all black belts versus all brown belts........There really is no training or advice giving during sparring. However, of course, any sparring is better than none at all. You'll be able to pick up a little on your own.