Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Lamassu]

No, you were striking back at those that didn't tow the SD party line and YOU didn't like what you were reading and I'm calling you on it. All the SD peeps pretty much told him to stick it out except for The Xia and myself.

Either show me where I "attack SD with no basis to do so", "think that it's nothing more than a series of websites on the net", "criticize it's technique without even experiencing it first hand" or apologize for mischaracterizing my comments.

Man up or be the typical Internat a$$hole. Your choice.

Yeah, you haven't spent 10 years in the system so who are you to make a judgement?

This whole **** thread is nothing but SD bashing, and SDer's defending their art, look at the title of the thread for pete's sake. How many times must I say that I agreed with you and Xia about Shaolin Wookie trying out other schools? How many? Do you black out when you come across those very words or merely gloss over them and continue to be antagonistic towards me? As for internet a$$hole, yes I am one, but no bigger than you, Xia, or anyone else on this forum swinging their ego's around and talking mad smack. This, BTW, has gone WAY off topic and now it's only a matter of pointless bickering. I'm done with it, think of me however you like, like Xia said: I have my opinions and he has his and you have yours. I'm having too good of a day to let this petty bickering that you won't let die, ruin it.

BTW, no, I haven't been in SD for 10 years, only 6 and hopefully I'll be able to continue my training until the day I die.

[godzillakungfu]

The honest to god truth about it is that we receive no training. During the time that the Soards were away we did not even spar for three months. Even now we've lucky if we do it once a week.

Even then it's "Grab your sparring equipment.........spar". So we dance around for a few minutes and thats about it. We have also done some silly stuff such as all black belts versus all brown belts........There really is no training or advice giving during sparring. However, of course, any sparring is better than none at all. You'll be able to pick up a little on your own.

It wasn't always like that. Not trying to say the schools alway made good fighters. Just saying there is a reason your upper ranks look good. It has less to do with time and more to do with contact.

[Mas Judt]

"? How Is MMA BS. You have answered it , it is just about fighting.
? to you. Do you think you train realistically ? Do you go to the street and test your skill ??
I think not.
Is MMA easy ? Yes. It is 70 % conditioning and 30 % skill. If you are in good shape for the ring you will win. Skill means winning when you have skill regardless of conditioning.
I speak from experience when I say this.
Kung fu traditionally taught is harder, if it is done right.
Why ? It involves the brain as well as the body. Example is Go Rin No Sho, The Art of War . Both Combat thesis but neither talk much about conditioning and mostly about Technique , strategy and Mind . Who of you have fought for real or has it been just sport. KC"

Kwai - the above post makes it very clear that you do not even have a frame of reference to make an intelligent observation. You need to crawl out from under your rock and get some experience young puppy...

[John Many Jars]

BoulderDawg,

This is what, IMHO, you should do. When a form is being taught, at some point, Master Dave or Sharon usually show applications for the form. When they do, remember them. Some of them are easier to pick up than others so if you have a question about what they're doing, ask them as they're showing it or after class.

Outside of class or during practice hour get w/ a parter and work on those applications. Turn them into a one step technique, gradually increasing the amount of resistance and have the attacker change the timing up. Then start incorporating that into your sparring.

If what I was trying to do wasn't working I'll go up to the person I was sparring (usually the highest rank I can get to spar w/ me) and say "I was trying to get this in but it just wasn't happening. Am I doing something wrong?" More often than not I'll get a good answer.

You've got some really good upper level BB in Boulder. People, I consider to be tough, not just good at doing forms. Those are the ones I would seek out, if I were you.


*edit* BoulderDawg check your PM's

[Meat Shake]

"if you don't train to fight that way you will not....it really has nothing to do with style....it's what you train for....it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out. Yes the're good fighters in SD and like anyother MA including MMA the're ones that suck."


Its not just that... SD is not geared for fighting, it is geared for forms. Straight down to the impractical moves that are taught.
That said.... I honestly dont think its much if any worse off than a good amount of other "traditional" styles of kung fu.
When I started Shuai Chiao, on my very first day, I spent 2 hours being thrown like a ragdoll to learn how to fall. As training progressed, the sessions moved to 4 hours of throwing and being thrown, and free wrestling, which was nothing more than applying what we had learned in a practical situation against a resisting opponent. Generally we would roll for the last 30 minutes to hour after we were already exhausted.
SD... I went in, we would do kicks, do punches, hit a bag, hit a bag moving, do forms, do kicks, do punches, do some more forms, swing around some weapons, and spar for 10 minutes with light contact and no realistic feedback.

[John Many Jars]

SD... I went in, we would do kicks, do punches, hit a bag, hit a bag moving, do forms, do kicks, do punches, do some more forms, swing around some weapons, and spar for 10 minutes with light contact and no realistic feedback.

When you say realistic feedback are you referring to the level of contact or lack of instruction? Just curious.

[tattooedmonk]

"if you don't train to fight that way you will not....it really has nothing to do with style....it's what you train for....it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out. Yes the're good fighters in SD and like anyother MA including MMA the're ones that suck."


Its not just that... SD is not geared for fighting, it is geared for forms. Straight down to the impractical moves that are taught.
That said.... I honestly dont think its much if any worse off than a good amount of other "traditional" styles of kung fu.
When I started Shuai Chiao, on my very first day, I spent 2 hours being thrown like a ragdoll to learn how to fall. As training progressed, the sessions moved to 4 hours of throwing and being thrown, and free wrestling, which was nothing more than applying what we had learned in a practical situation against a resisting opponent. Generally we would roll for the last 30 minutes to hour after we were already exhausted.
SD... I went in, we would do kicks, do punches, hit a bag, hit a bag moving, do forms, do kicks, do punches, do some more forms, swing around some weapons, and spar for 10 minutes with light contact and no realistic feedback.

Well I would say a great deal of your problem, and many others like you, is that there was not enough real training for fighting and more emphasis put on health and teaching material.

Quite simply there are not enough hours at the schools to put the time into practical application and usage. And I agree but not all SD / CSC schools are like this ( most are though).

Although the art is authentic Shaolin it is looked at more as a business/ social endeavor rather than a martial arts training center.

To combat this for years I personally took it upon myself to get together with students and take each of the elements of each form and teach and practice practical application and usage.

I am no longer affiliated but I still believe in SD and GMS. I learned all the material through 6th black ( which is more than enough for a lifetime)and now teach what I have learned with fighting and practical application the way that it should be done .

Do not get me wrong the business , social, and health / fitness aspect is very important but not as much as the practical application, usage, and the integrity of The Art.

I believe that this is compromised by the business aspect and the lack of Taoist , Confucist, Buddhist, and shamanist PHILOSOPHY.

Oh by the way my shuai jiao training has helped my bagua zhang out a whole hell of a lot.

[tattooedmonk]

BoulderDawg,

This is what, IMHO, you should do. When a form is being taught, at some point, Master Dave or Sharon usually show applications for the form. When they do, remember them. Some of them are easier to pick up than others so if you have a question about what they're doing, ask them as they're showing it or after class.

Outside of class or during practice hour get w/ a parter and work on those applications. Turn them into a one step technique, gradually increasing the amount of resistance and have the attacker change the timing up. Then start incorporating that into your sparring.

If what I was trying to do wasn't working I'll go up to the person I was sparring (usually the highest rank I can get to spar w/ me) and say "I was trying to get this in but it just wasn't happening. Am I doing something wrong?" More often than not I'll get a good answer.

You've got some really good upper level BB in Boulder. People, I consider to be tough, not just good at doing forms. Those are the ones I would seek out, if I were you.


*edit* BoulderDawg check your PM's

I agree!!!!

[tattooedmonk]

Most of us are not calling MMA BS If you train to fight all out full contact no matter your style you will be a good fighter...if you don't train to fight that way you will not....it really has nothing to do with style....it's what you train for....it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out. Yes the're good fighters in SD and like anyother MA including MMA the're ones that suck.
You guys are arguing over nothing.

I agree. .........

[Shaolin Wookie]

After talking with plenty of people from both sides of the table, I've figured out a way to maximize my training with what I believe will be better results.

I sat down this afternoon (boss called me out today...got a day of rest ) and did something I considered hokey and pointless. I started drafting my goals for training. What I wanted to accomplish this year. Fitness. Conditioning. Skill. Refinement, etc.

Then I examined, honestly, what kind of person I am. I'm a painter, a writer, a pianist (poor one ), a runner, athelete, martial artist, philosopher, soon-to-be grad student looking to teach.

Then I examined my relationships with each of these facets of my personality, and how I'd dealt with them, and how I'd refined each of them.

I found a parallel: As a painter, I was an ardent artist all my life. So it was my decision to make it one of my two majors in college. I passed the reviews, took the classes, and began to learn new approaches (very new) to my art. The first class I took, the teacher collected everyone's materials and then confiscated them (almost all pencils and pens--my bread and butter ). He said: "you can have these back at the end of the year." Then he handed us big blocky 25 cent charcoal, and said: "Today you learn how to draw." It was true. I had to learn all over again, and it made me a thousand times better. But it wasn't all a labor in paradise. I struggled with various teachers really hard. There were at least two times I nearly dropped out of the art program to major in English alone. But every time I got to the point where I felt there was just no hope of coping with the program (very abstract-oriented, not much room for realists)....I would pull out my portfolio, set my latest works beside my older ones, and just critique myself...very honestly.

It was at these times I began to realize how I'd changed as an artist. I'd begun to think differently, approach things differently, see them differently, and describe them differently. But until that moment, where I really sat down to criticize myself, I'd felt like I'd hit a wall, and I couldn't see past it. And then, wham, some relfection and introspection would just punch right through that wall. I'd see these vast changes, and where they could take me.

I guess this kind of describes what I've been going through. I'm not through it, but at least I'm finding a way to get around it. It's much harder to gauge your progress in martial arts, because there's no finished product to look at. It's just....do I feel like I've made progress? Am I better? Do I enjoy what I'm doing? Would I do better elsewhere?

Well, I still enjoyed it. I wasn't sure I was better, though...but how could I not be? I just didn't feel like I'd made any progress. But when I looked around, I saw a couple of people I thought were on another level--where I wanted to end up. So surely SD was the right path. I've just got to find my way in the Way (redundant, I know ). It's not gonna be "one size fits all". I might have to make some of my own adjustments....in my mind, viewpoint, etc. Then I reminded myself that I'm always my own worst critic. I hate positive feedback. I don't feel it helps me much. I only want to hear negative criticism. That's just how I work, I guess. So I was probably just full of my own self-abnegation. Everything else...the whole real-shaolin...fake shaolin...Master The' this...Master The' that....that was all a cop out. It has nothing to do with training. It's all just the packaging. It wasn't the product, if you guys can feel me. I'm not going to apologize for the things I said, though--they were said in earnest. But as regards Master The': if he taught the guys I consider "on another level," then he's got to be good enough for me....just seems logical. If I can learn from him I should, rather than just scrutinize. Funny, usually that's my motto. Just don't know what's come over me recently....maybe I jsut had to expand my viewpoint.

So many people gave me good advice these past two weeks. But the best came from my brother yesterday. We'd been doing BJJ (me cross-training) for the past month....but didn't plan on doing it anymore (he was paying for both of us, and apparently World of Warcraft was more important to him..."dude, I just started a draenei Shaman.... ....what a ****....haha....). Anyway, I told him I was considering a switch. He asked why. I told him, more or less.

He just said: dude, you've never quit anything in your life. Well, I disagreed. I mentioned religion and a bunch of other things. And he just replied: yeah, man, but you question everything. It's just what you do, and you'll never stop doing that.

So I kind of came to the realization that I was just doing what I do best (the conversation was much longer, and he was acutally informative---surprise surprise....my wierd, lazy brother ). All I was doing was struggling with some questions I needed to answer for myself. I've made that my new M.O. in the martial arts, now, rather than being spoonfed dogma--to seek. My brother told me: "Dude, if you lived in another era, you'd start up a Revolution just to see what'd happen." It was kind of true. I'm just a ****kicker, prankster, all around monkeyman...so I'm always going to be picking at something. I guess my martial arts was the subject of the day. My teacher talked with me that night, for which I am thankful, and it just reinforced what I'd been thinking about.

I'm sticking with what I'm doing. I've just got to hammer out the kinks. Can't quit. I don't plan on testing anytime soon. I'm going to focus on the external stuff, and my Tai Chi. So I'll just be doing one side of hte coin (mostly anyways, since I really do Tai Chi for body mechanics to help my fu...though I think my fu makes my Chi better....weird....). Tai Chi is a lot to handle in itself...and I don't really want to tack anymore internal stuff onto that struggle. On the off days, I could cross-train in SPM, if I feel like it....and right now I have the urge to look around. So, I could do that, and probably will. It's really different from what I learn now, in shape anyways. I think it'll help me make some progress. Maybe it won't....but at least I'll have satisfied my curiousity....and I'm a man ruled by curiousity. It's just the way I am. I know that, and I always have known that. I want to do everything, but I want to do one thing excellently. Sprout a root, then branch out....but stay grounded in the root. I figure I'm the guy who's always going to look, maybe even dabble here and there, but keep his roots solid.

Man, I hope my girlfriend never reads that.........

Anyways....I think I'm just going to read a book at work now. So much for this forum for a while. Not to slight it, but I could be doing something better. I can even work on some tension excercises instead. Might as well. Although, I've always treated this forum like a Demosthenian society--man, I miss those things....so it does have its value...kind of.....and it gives you a decent education in argument, so long as you can ignore a troll or two.

Well, later dudes....

[kwaichang]

What kind of experience would you recommend that I havent done. Or am doing . I have trained in many fighting arts probably longer than you have been alive.
Boxing at 6 years old
Began CMA at 11
Japanese Karate at 17
Boxed pro from 19 to 24
Entered no holds barred Matches 22-27, Bouncer in Numerous bars in Nashville and C/ Ville
Studied Ai Ki jutsu and Judo along with Japanese Karate hard style until 34
Began SD at 34
Trained with pro kick boxers including light welter and welter weight world champion
Fought Anthony the Amp elmore World Kick Boxing Heavy weight Champ
Train 5-7 days per week cross train with 10-15 rounds 4 x per week Heavy Bag work
No Puppy here son. KC
PS I didnt have time or room for all of it sorry, Oh did I mention Instructoe for joint special forces team ranger , airborne Navy special ops ??

[Mas Judt]

Nah, we're probably about the same age 'son'.

Unfortunately this just makes you look a little thick....

[Baqualin]

Well I would say a great deal of your problem, and many others like you, is that there was not enough real training for fighting and more emphasis put on health and teaching material.

Quite simply there are not enough hours at the schools to put the time into practical application and usage. And I agree but not all SD / CSC schools are like this ( most are though).

Although the art is authentic Shaolin it is looked at more as a business/ social endeavor rather than a martial arts training center.

To combat this for years I personally took it upon myself to get together with students and take each of the elements of each form and teach and practice practical application and usage.

I am no longer affiliated but I still believe in SD and GMS. I learned all the material through 6th black ( which is more than enough for a lifetime)and now teach what I have learned with fighting and practical application the way that it should be done .

Do not get me wrong the business , social, and health / fitness aspect is very important but not as much as the practical application, usage, and the integrity of The Art.

I believe that this is compromised by the business aspect and the lack of Taoist , Confucist, Buddhist, and shamanist PHILOSOPHY.

Oh by the way my shuai jiao training has helped my bagua zhang out a whole hell of a lot.

DITTO!! To all above!!

[kwaichang]

Truth is a hard thing to swallow , BTW what is the meaning of thick. ??? If you think I am lieing about what I told you son then you are in for a rude awakening. It is sad that those who train in Traditional / Classical MA do not put the time or effort into them to make them work. Those who train in MMA or other hybrid styles seem to have a decreased desire to put in the time to do it. It is this short cut method that leads to people wanting instant gratification which seems to be a short lived thing. KC

[Meat Shake]

In terms of feedback I mean that practical applications were pretty much never taught.
"Time to spar, no heavy contact, dont hit the head!"
When I asked about getting out of certain holds or avoiding certain situation some strange an ineffective move was always shown.
Its not so much the training philosophy of SD that I say isnt good for fighting, its the actual impractical techniques of the system.
Like I said, some of them may look really cool, but for the most part none of them have anything to do with fighting.

"PS I didnt have time or room for all of it sorry, Oh did I mention Instructoe for joint special forces team ranger , airborne Navy special ops ??"

If all that is the case... I have a hard time believing you would see anything other than aerobic kickboxing in SD.
I had a golden gloves boxer in my SD class that quit right about when I did.
And as for who you trained under... There was more than once when I went to Austin for seminars with master schaeffer... Its the same sh!t there, just put into a mystical awe that he is a "master".
My Shuai Chiao instructor trained for 25 years and had barely gotten his 3rd degree blackbelt. With the group I was training with, to get your first degree black belt took 7-10 years, and required use of virtually every technique and sparring within a free fighting environment.