Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Mas Judt]

KC, I was being a bit rude - 'thick' meaning 'dense'. It was a casual slam at not noticing that the average MMA-er shows many more of the positive attributes of MA training than most 'traditionalists.'

I assure you, if you told an old-time Chinese caravan gaurd that you thought you were better off learning something that took longer and offered more 'health' benefits, they would laugh you right out of there.

CMA used to be all about fighting too. The other benefits came from training to fight.

[KungFu Student]

In terms of feedback I mean that practical applications were pretty much never taught.
"Time to spar, no heavy contact, dont hit the head!"
When I asked about getting out of certain holds or avoiding certain situation some strange an ineffective move was always shown.
Its not so much the training philosophy of SD that I say isnt good for fighting, its the actual impractical techniques of the system.
Like I said, some of them may look really cool, but for the most part none of them have anything to do with fighting.

"PS I didnt have time or room for all of it sorry, Oh did I mention Instructoe for joint special forces team ranger , airborne Navy special ops ??"

If all that is the case... I have a hard time believing you would see anything other than aerobic kickboxing in SD.
I had a golden gloves boxer in my SD class that quit right about when I did.
And as for who you trained under... There was more than once when I went to Austin for seminars with master schaeffer... Its the same sh!t there, just put into a mystical awe that he is a "master".
My Shuai Chiao instructor trained for 25 years and had barely gotten his 3rd degree blackbelt. With the group I was training with, to get your first degree black belt took 7-10 years, and required use of virtually every technique and sparring within a free fighting environment.

So how long were you in SD before you decided it was not for you?

[Judge Pen]

If I were training for a full contact fight, then my training would have to drastically change from my typical SD routine, but the techiques and applications that I've been taught could and would be used. My training methods would have to be modified. I think that's common with many who have a life outside of the martial arts (full time job and family). My training time is limited and I'm as interested in the aestics as I am in the fighting.

[MasterKiller]

If I were training for a full contact fight, then my training would have to drastically change from my typical SD routine, but the techiques and applications that I've been taught could and would be used. My training methods would have to be modified.

If you were training for a full contact fight, you would need more than just a modification to routine. You need lots of clinch work, and lots of ground work, two things lacking in most kung fu schools, including the one I initially trained in.

My kung fu punches, kicks, and throws work fine in an MMA environment...but without lots and lots of clinch work and lots and lots of ground work (wrestling and submissions, not the usual 'kick from the ground' TCMA stuff), you are destined to lose, no matter how hard you train your usual stuff.

Oh but wait, I know...I know...Most SD schools have awesome clinch work, and some even have a jiu-jitsu coach on Friday nights (not aimed at you, JP).

Guess what...even if it's true, it's still not enough.

[KungFu Student]

If I were training for a full contact fight, then my training would have to drastically change from my typical SD routine, but the techiques and applications that I've been taught could and would be used. My training methods would have to be modified. I think that's common with many who have a life outside of the martial arts (full time job and family). My training time is limited and I'm as interested in the aestics as I am in the fighting.

Well spoken. I think herein lies the rub. I personally do not think it is wise to let lower ranks to spar full speed/full contact. The chance of injury due to lack of control and technique is just too great. But the black belts do go at it hard when they spar at my school, but the control is obvious. People who do not devote their lives to study a M.A. for the most part cannot afford the chance of time away from work due to injury that full speed/contact sparring can possibly bring.

I was told from day one that forms are not to be taken literally, and used exactly as shown in a fighting situation, but more like building blocks to help you develop your own moves based on what you have been shown. Now being a lowly green belt, my experience is very limited, and I have yet to put my time in, so I am a work in progress.

It has also been my experience that each time I learned a new technique or form, I was instructed in it's practical application. Granted, there were times I said to myself "I don't think that I would do that in that situation", but I have had that issue in other M.A. that I have taken as well.

If a person wants to learn how to beat someone up, then i will admit that there are probably quicker ways to learn how to do it then SD. But I have no doubts that sticking with it and putting in quality practice, that I can defend myself if I need to. But that is not the main reason I take M.A.

[MasterKiller]

People who do not devote their lives to study a M.A. for the most part cannot afford the chance of time away from work due to injury that full speed/contact sparring can possibly bring.

I've witnessed more blown knees from badly landed tornado kicks and whatnot (2) that I've seen in MMA (0).

Both were kung fu brothers that never recovered enough to return to regular practice. I have never trained with anyone in MMA that got hurt so bad they had to quit. One guy got a bad staph infection and was out 6 weeks, but sometimes sh1t just happens that way.

Sure you can get hurt. But you can train hard and train safe at the same time.

Being hurt and being injured are not the same thing.

[KungFu Student]

Sure you can get hurt. But you can train hard and train safe at the same time.

Being hurt and being injured are not the same thing.

I cannot disagree with you there. I recently got kicked right in my left eyeball not to the side or up or down, square in the ball. It hurt, took all the fight out of me, but I sat down for a bit, and got back to it later on. The possibility of getting hurt or injured when you spar, especially full contact/speed, is the risk you have to take. But there are those who just don't want to take that chance, and I can accept that. There are also those who flat out don't like to spar, and I am ok with that too, different stokes and all. There are also those who want to train and spar hard, but can't stay safe at the same time. I have been in the situation where I have had to stop sparring with an individual because they were out of control, at least for me. It might be ok for some, but at my level of training I was not willing to keep going at their intensity level and risk getting injured. Some might view this as weak, but I know what I can do, and I know when I am in over my head.

[Judge Pen]

If you were training for a full contact fight, you would need more than just a modification to routine. You need lots of clinch work, and lots of ground work, two things lacking in most kung fu schools, including the one I initially trained in.

My kung fu punches, kicks, and throws work fine in an MMA environment...but without lots and lots of clinch work and lots and lots of ground work (wrestling and submissions, not the usual 'kick from the ground' TCMA stuff), you are destined to lose, no matter how hard you train your usual stuff.

Oh but wait, I know...I know...Most SD schools have awesome clinch work, and some even have a jiu-jitsu coach on Friday nights (not aimed at you, JP).

Guess what...even if it's true, it's still not enough.

You're right. What I would need is a lot more conditioning, more bag-work, drilling agasint resistance, and sparring at all ranges (clinch and ground especially). I couldn't agree more. But the applications in my forms contain these techniques. I would need to modify my intensity and training methods drastically if I were to square off against a well conditioned and well trained opponent in a full contact match. Look, we have 900 forms! We have plenty of application to chose from.

Something that always rubbed me wrong about MMA and UFC? Are there any regulations for steriods, performance enhancers or pain killers?

[kwaichang]

So anyway, I train to fight I love the forms but I can make them work or should I say the ABC's of them. 20 years ago or so I was a bouncer there were 20- 30 people going at it. Our job was to get them out of the club to the street. I was doing ok when this guy got me in a rear choke standing. As I remember it the following happened he started his choke I grabbed a leg he wrapped me with the other, i was losing it. So I thrust my self backward and slammed him on the curb his buddies picked hiom up and took him off. Let me say this about clinch work or ground. A thumb 2 inches into the eye socket or a testicle clamped between a thumb and fore finger , crunch, will break any hold. KC

[brucereiter]

Let me say this about clinch work or ground. A thumb 2 inches into the eye socket or a testicle clamped between a thumb and fore finger , crunch, will break any hold. KC

hi kc,

all respect to you but i think that might be a little naive ...

how do you get your thumb into the eye?
what if they move just enough that it does not hurt them? where do you go from there?

how do you get your hand on their nuts?
what if they are wearing big baggy thick jeans lol or even a nut cup?(i know people who do a lot of slamming in mosh pits and get into fights at shows who wear a cup and mouth guard)
what if you miss?
what if you just grap the "sack" and not the testicle?
then what good are these "moves"

i think a situation/fight would have to be pretty extreme for me to feel the need to blind a human being.

all i am getting at is it is not as easy as it sounds to poke an eye out or to grab/kick the nuts. specifically on a skilled fighter.

best,

b

[The Xia]

A good grappler will make it very difficult for you to use those techniques. I don't really get why some people see no value in grappling. Here's a fact, grappling is part of TMA, including Kung Fu!

[kwaichang]

WHAT IF? the great ultimate question the statement though effective is a rhetorical and an effective one. You can what if all day long. That is the intensity to fight with even the MMA have rules. If it is for real then make it for keeps. Dont F around. KC I like biting too the human mouth is very nasty. PS there is always something to grab.

[KungFu Student]

A thumb 2 inches into the eye socket or a testicle clamped between a thumb and fore finger , crunch, will break any hold. KC

Heh, absolutely. It always cracks me up when I am confronted by the "know every countermove" student. You know the type, the one that has the "ultimate" counter move for any situation. "If you did this, I would do this, and it would be over." I think to my self, "Ok, then I could kick you in the balls, or gouge you in the eyes or kick you in the knee." It is the simple moves that work the best. Not that I advocate doing that to a fellow student...

[KungFu Student]

A good grappler will make it very difficult for you to use those techniques. I don't really get why some people see no value in grappling. Here's a fact, grappling is part of TMA, including Kung Fu!

I see alot of value in grappling, I am doing some reading on San Shou Kuai Jiao and wish I could find somewhere locally that teaches it.

[BoulderDawg]

I don't know why we can't learn it all.

Let's learn how to kick and punch and also learn how to grabble.

Just from a nonviolent standpoint would not it be better to grab somebody in an armlock or leglock for a brief period until they calmed down instead of breaking their jaw?

I think grabbing someone in an armlock and saying "I know this hurts but if you calm down I will let you go" is much more impressive than smashing someone's face.

Also, from a self defense standpoint, I think learning some grabbling moves is better for a female in trouble. Using leverage against a man gives her enough advantage to get away. However trying to "slug it out" of go for the nuts or eyes might get the lady killed.