Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[The Xia]

KungFu Student,
Shuai Jiao is a great style. Good luck in finding a sifu.
BoulderDawg,
Grappling can be brutal as well. Throwing someone on a hard surface can do a lot of damage. It's even worse if the person doesn't know how to fall. Also, you don't have to "submit" someone, you can break and move on. That's really how you'd do it in a street situation where multiple opponents may be involved. It really depends on the situation. If you are a bouncer in a club, sparring, or competing, to name a few, it's a different story.

[KungFu Student]

Also, from a self defense standpoint, I think learning some grabbling moves is better for a female in trouble. Using leverage against a man gives her enough advantage to get away. However trying to "slug it out" of go for the nuts or eyes might get the lady killed.

In my opinion, I believe it is just the opposite. A female trying to get into grappling reach of a man would in most cases let the male utilize his strength advantage. By using you long reach weapons in a quick attack, in this case a kick to the groin or knee, or the jab to the eyes hopefully would stun them enough to allow a quick getaway. I was not advocating a slug fest in any way, man or women.

[The Xia]

Groin strikes and eye pokes don't always work.

[KungFu Student]

Groin strikes and eye pokes don't always work.

True, but there are alot of things that don't always work. A difference of opinion to be sure, but that is all it is. I am not saying that grappling does not have it's place in a real life confrontation. But me personally, I am going to do what ever I can to stay as far away from my assailant as possible, but if that is not an option, then I had better know how to keep them tied up as well.

[Baqualin]

If you were training for a full contact fight, you would need more than just a modification to routine. You need lots of clinch work, and lots of ground work, two things lacking in most kung fu schools, including the one I initially trained in.

Oh but wait, I know...I know...Most SD schools have awesome clinch work, and some even have a jiu-jitsu coach on Friday nights (not aimed at you, JP).

Guess what...even if it's true, it's still not enough.

MK read all my post about this subject before you pick at me. My statement is true, but I never said it was enough...never said we were a fight school....never said most....never said awesome clinch work...I was only making a point that there's more to some SD schools than people realize. I've always said, if your going to fight all out in the ring you have to train specifically for that or you will get your a$$ handed to you...I'm not stupid, I've been at this for 36 yrs. There are some people in SD training that way,not most and not me, I'm to old....but I still like to get on the ground once in a while.
BQ

[kwaichang]

Hey I even like to do ground work especially if shes real good looking and built like Rachel Mcclish KC

[The Xia]

True, but there are alot of things that don't always work. A difference of opinion to be sure, but that is all it is. I am not saying that grappling does not have it's place in a real life confrontation. But me personally, I am going to do what ever I can to stay as far away from my assailant as possible, but if that is not an option, then I had better know how to keep them tied up as well.

That really depends on what kind of fighter you are. Some styles are short range and others long range and some are both. Some fighters prefer to keep distance and use long range techniques and others like to plow through the opponent and fight close range. Some prefer grappling, some prefer striking. Some like to do all of these things.

Hey I even like to do ground work especially if shes real good looking and built like Rachel Mcclish KC

If you are a fighter, it's not wise to dismiss groundfighting.

[kwaichang]

You slay me XIA. KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

BJJ is a formidable fighting art. I've witnessed this firsthand this past month. The only thing is....tackling someone is not 100%....and it's where all the risk is involved.

I learned a lot about takedowns. Enough to know the art wasnt' for me.

But on a curious sidenote, just last Thursday my brother, who is out of shape and has no training whatsoever, and has an enormous flinch complex, was training takedowns with one of the purple belts at the school (which, from what I heard there, was pretty high rank). He was scary, mean, looking. Had all kinds of tats, and a bulldog on the back of the neck. He was ripped, had some scars, and the beginnings of cauliflower ears. I think he was a wrestler, or something.

This dude (who I won't name) was talking about the value of surprise in a takedown. He didn't announce what he was doing, and shot in for a takedown on my bro, I guess to prove his point. My brother flinched and threw a knee without thinking. It caught the guy square in the forehead....just crack! The guy curled up on the ground, and my brother was like: "Oh my god!! Are you okay!" The guy was swearing, red in th eface, and he got up about 5 minutes later, threatening my brother with basically bodily mutilation before he calmed down. (We haven't been back since..... ........)

So....groundwork, as we learned, is complex, technical, and takes a lot of skill. But like anything, it has its flaws and its weaknesses, and even a lucky shot can take the best of th ebest down like little *****es every once and a while.

(My brother's been bragging about it ever since...... .....)

It's interesting, but definately not Invincible. But I know it's not particularly catching to some people. Plus, I didn't like the people we trained with. Some of 'em were,......I don't know.....a little....what's the word?

Assholish?

[Judge Pen]

I agree that a good grappler will make it very difficult to apply the classic "non-grappling" ground defenses of pressure points, eye-pokes and biting. It's like anything else, the theory and the concept are vastly differnt in application. These techniques can work, however, and should be considered in your aresenal if your in a scrape as should the full array of grappling techniques. BJJ guys can poke eyes and bite you too--I think a lot of people think that these techniques will catch a grappler unaware, which is silly. If its there and justified you do it to survive, but you won't know your opportunities until you are comfortable in the basics of ground-fighting. I see value in learning everything.

[Judge Pen]

So....groundwork, as we learned, is complex, technical, and takes a lot of skill. But like anything, it has its flaws and its weaknesses, and even a lucky shot can take the best of th ebest down like little *****es every once and a while.

Absolutely! Everyone should know enough to at least protect yourself if you get taken down and how to get back on your feet witout getting hurt. If you can learn that without the eye-pokes, biting, pressue-points, etc., then great--in a "real" encounter you will have that much more to employ.

[The Xia]

I agree that a good grappler will make it very difficult to apply the classic "non-grappling" ground defenses of pressure points, eye-pokes and biting. It's like anything else, the theory and the concept are vastly differnt in application. These techniques can work, however, and should be considered in your aresenal if your in a scrape as should the full array of grappling techniques. BJJ guys can poke eyes and bite you too--I think a lot of people think that these techniques will catch a grappler unaware, which is silly. If its there and justified you do it to survive, but you won't know your opportunities until you are comfortable in the bbasics of ground-fighting. I see value in learning everything.

I couldn't put it better myself.
Wookie,
Interesting story. I think it ties into what JP just said. Sure, sprawling is an effective counter to the shoot but knees, downward elbows, and other techniques can also work. It really has to do with the fighters involved.

[MasterKiller]

I learned a lot about takedowns. Enough to know the art wasnt' for me.

Takedowns are easy. I grab you and we fall down. BJJ is about positional awareness and dominance on the ground after the takedown.

If you left a BJJ class and think it was only about takedowns, then you didn't learn d1ck.

The technique you don't study is the one that will beat you.

[Baqualin]

I couldn't put it better myself.
Wookie,
Interesting story. I think it ties into what JP just said. Sure, sprawling is an effective counter to the shoot but knees, downward elbows, and other techniques can also work. It really has to do with the fighters involved.

Hey Xia
You impress me more everyday. At our school some of us are working on how to avoid a total take down and if not sucessful, what to do on the way down to get in your pressure point strikes or breaks or whatever (helps your Baqua) to keep from getting killed once on the ground.
I've also seen first hand what JP described, regarding the ability of a really good grappler to avoid pressure point strikes, biting, eyepokes or anything else while humiliating upper level Blk belts. It's kinda funny, makes them stand back and scratch their head.
BQ

[Shaolin Wookie]

Found some interesting clips while d1cking around this afternoon after a little nap after work this morning. The Hakka forms have a lot of the same "essence" as our forms....just ours have more of a stereotypically northern footwork pattern, I think. Some of 'em aren't Hakka. Just related......thought SD guys might enjoy 'em. Haters 'll just laugh.....

Reminds me, shorlty, of our 3 brown belt bird forms....you'll see why....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yE1SE...elated&search=



Okay, some of the movements are a little different, but it has the same feel as our San He Chien, especially towards the end:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7cG_...elated&search=

I've seen every one of these moves so far....before black belt. I'm thinking between White Monkey Steals the Peach, our short forms...china hands....just, mismatched/rehashed....same cadence, rhythm, essence, though....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfhExcU_ltc&NR

36 Seconds in...again that trademark bird (All 3 Shaolin birds) retreat into a broken leg stance....which I haven't really seen much in kung-fu except in these clips.....(addend: it appears in some Bak Mei forms in a less "flashy" fashion...only they don't seem to put the broken leg's heel flat to the floor [also in 1st/3rd crane]).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONezK...elated&search=

1:50 in.....a Chinese guy using Sai? Say it ain't so!!! Different form, some shared movements with SD's sai's, but many differences.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnA32...elated&search=

******!!! I posted the wrong link.....just another one of that bird/broken leg retreat.....think he's doing a mantis form...not really sure......Hakka forms kind of blend together after a while.....or maybe I just don't have the eye for it.

Well, I gotta go to class now....enough web fu this week.