Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[tattooedmonk]

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This guy is from Shaolin-Do isn't he?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=nPMbU63Y6Gg

Is this also Shaolin-Do?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=GncI4c47iXw[/QUOTE] yes to the first one no to the second

[tattooedmonk]

Ug. What does philosophy have to do with the move? Or are you trying to be humorous?

you are kidding right?? philosophy and the principles of Taoism, Buddhism , Confucianism , and Shamanism are majorly important to understanding CMA and Life.

[tattooedmonk]

So you guys don't know where mountain tiger comes from?

Its kind of funny that the only references anywhere to mountain tiger or flying tiger are from the Shaolin Do people, you would think that if it was shaolin based some other shaolin practitioners would have heard of it.

Get over your self. Who have you asked about it?? You know that many of the so called shaolin forms that are taught as Shaolin now are not even originally Shaolin ?? I do not recall exactly where it came from I will have to look into my notes. I believe that it is from the Water Margin Golden Tiger system . A name on a form does not neccesarily indicate a specific system or style. Give everyone a break we are not all sitting here waiting all day just to answer your questions.

[Lamassu]

I'm sorry Psycho Mantis, but we never said there was a 'Flying Tiger' system in Shaolin, so you can drop that right now. We say there's a 'Mountain Tiger' system within Shaolin Do that originated from the temple in the Honan province. Whether you accept that or not is really irrelevent, because all this is going to do is end up in a circular argument. If you don't like Shaolin Do, that's fine, whatever floats your boat, but you can't really expect to effect any change in our curriculum since nobody here on this forum created these styles in the first place.

[kwaichang]

I sit here watching all these historian wanna bees spouting off about what they think they know about.
1. You are arguing over a loose translation that was probably spelled in a way so country folk could say it. How stupid is that. The point is is the move is a X arm lock with a sweep from the golden fling cat tiger system of the shaolin temple of the lower bronx coming out of the alley with a garbage can. Get a life. KC

[MasterKiller]

Can someone post a video of either this form or Flying Goose Palm?

I'm curious because Little Tiger-Swallow (Xiao Hu Yan) is sometimes mistranslated as both Little Flying-Tiger Fist and also sometimes Little Flying Goose Fist.

[brucereiter]

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This guy is from Shaolin-Do isn't he?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=nPMbU63Y6Gg

the above link is sr master gary grooms. he runs the ga chinese shaolin centers shaolin do schools.

Is this also Shaolin-Do?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=GncI4c47iXw

yes to the first one no to the second[/QUOTE]

the second one is not part of the shaolin do system. this guy seems to have some good stuff though ...

[tattooedmonk]

the above link is sr master gary grooms. he runs the ga chinese shaolin centers shaolin do schools.


yes to the first one no to the second

the second one is not part of the shaolin do system. this guy seems to have some good stuff though ...[/QUOTE]




I know Master Grooms . I was the one that posted this in response to someone else's post.( yes to the first no to the second ). Master Grooms knows his Shiznit

[tattooedmonk]

I am aware that much of what is passed off as shaolin these days is not.

No such thing as the Water Margin Golden Tiger System in Shaolin or anywhere else.

No such thing as the Mountain Tiger or Flying Tiger either.

Its BS.

Oh and because you say there is not then it must be , right??

As a matter of fact there are Water Margin Flying Tiger and Golden Tiger Styles maybe you should do a little more home work before you call bullshido.

I just threw this out there to see what responses I would get from you @$$holes.

Look on www.kungfu-taichi.com and you will find these styles. real wushu scholar

And to all you SD ers yes I know they are not the same but they have very similar structure and movements compared to our forms. Actually our forms look better and have greater content.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I am shocked, SHOCKED! that someone would suggest this thread is redundant. I liked the analogy that this thread is like an old pub that is filled with regulars talking about the same stuff everyday with the occassional outsider wandering in to add their two cents which will do nothing to change the minds of the regulars......

Yet manages to start a brawl, even though everyone's too drunk to get up, and too pizzed to throw a punch on target......

[Shaolin Wookie]

What happened to the good old days when students were respectful, teachers were dedicated to the student and not the dollar$$ ?? I am saddened by the lack of self discipline toward the spiritual and philosophical side of MA training. The total focus now is who can Kick whos as$.

About the respect....and the dollar$$.....
I think what happens is this: Most of us get into MA for philosophical, spiritual, and physical reasons. Some people just want to kick ass. I got into it for a more lasting kind of physical exercise that focused on breathing and meditation. But as in all things I do, I explored the depth of what I was doing during the first year and a half, and then said to myself----how can I get benefits from what I'm doing if I don't understand what it is I'm doing on a functional level (I.E.---actual fighting application)? I always poke at religious people, because they claim spiritual benefits from belief in something, and back it up with a holy book, yet have next to no familiarity with the holy book in question..... or often only on a very shallow level. When asked why I debunk western religion, I always reply: I don't believe it's sincere.

Sincerity is the root of martial arts study. It's about eating bitter(man, I love that phrase). Sincerity is what keeps you coming back for a beating, or coming back the next day despite the muscle pains from so much stretching and cardio. It's not the belief that tommorrow we're going to be invincible. It's recognition that if we push ourselves hard enough, it should be just as hard tommorrow as it was today, but we'll be better for it (hence, we eat more bitter). It's also what also gets us to question the root of SD. And when we examine the roots of SD, we have info that has no verification outside of our lineage holders. In order to validate this information for our own edification, we need outside sources. Why do we question for this kind of edification? We want the approval/recognition of others concerning the "truth" of our propositions. Nobody likes to feel like they're a part of a sham. I felt this way for a while. I know BD did (I think he had the same issues with SD that I did....and I just about left, too). When I took my first class with a Longfist teacher, and he watched me go through some basic motions, he said: "I see you have some martial training....what is it?" Well, I'd seen him go through some basic motions, and I saw that he was doing the same things I did, but with some structural differences......(more on this later).....and I didn't feel I could call it CMA per say.....maybe CMA'ish......so I replied: 'Kuntao' out of self-concious....I don't know....defeatism?.....maybe insecurity? Why?

I felt like in the admission, I was going to have to be responsible for the defense of SD's lineage, history, and forms, and such as I am a skeptic, it's not something I want to defend. But I do respect my instructor (a remarkable guy/MA who does care about his students [talked with me once for 2 hours and dismissed a bunch of phone calls to give me attention I'm now sure I didn't deserve, b/c I had been disrespectful towards him, his art, and his masters.....which I only realize now .....]

It's a clash between East and West. West--question, freedom of speech and thought, pursuit of truth. East---question internally, guard your feelings, present false fronts in public, take truth from those in power at the expense of personal feelings.

So what we all know that is not what this stuff is all about. Shoot if it were all of us would just carry a bigger gun. Those who question the art they have chosen to study and doubt the integrity of the Grand Master in my opinion should just leave. Well I guess I have opened a new can of worms. I can tell you though when I started to train in 1971 it was different and what we were taught meant something it was about learning not many of the things focused on here. BTW TWS no answer about August I guess you arent up to it. KC

I think that is why some people just leave. Some of us don't question the art directly by posing questions to those "in the know" because we see the level of devotion to GM Sin The' expressed by so many students and instructors, and yet those of us who doubt it begin to think: "This is just like Scientology (it's not....I hate Scientology [I ****ed some of 'em off and they harrassed me at work, nearly getting me fired ].....how can they believe these stories?" So we feel like outsiders. It isn't cowardice that keeps us from questioning GM The' and SD in front of Masters. It's just some good ole good manners. We see people enjoy their stories and art. Who are we to criticize? I don't think it's disrespectful at all. BoulderDawg.....I feel ya bro'.....but trust me.....the info's out there if you ask the right guys. So, some of us just slink off to search other venues for martial knowledge. But it's the same at other schools. Well, kind of.....except for the hairy monks and titty swimming....hehe....

But for all skeptics, like myself, it boils down to a couple of questions: do I enjoy what I'm doing?

I do. Therefore I continue to do it.

Can I learn what I want somewhere else?

Nope. Not what I want....drunken.....

Is it better at other schools?

Not really, just different. And each school is different than any other one.

[Shaolin Wookie]

eh... I see your point, but not everyone who studys martial arts believes in chi (qi) and when they talk to another martial artist who does, they think he's a flake even though chi (qi) has an ancient and often vital role (mostly in the internal arts). I don't see anyone's belief in chi (qi), for example, necessarily having a negative impact on the martial art community any more than say, roman catholics believing their eurcharist becomes the actual body and blood of christ. We may think that's silly, but it's still an integral part of their system of beliefs, just as chi (qi) is with martial arts (some not all).

East vs. West. PErsonally, when I heard my Longfist teacher tell me I had to do this or that to avoid internal damage to certain organs, or breathe this way or that in order to preserves certain organs, I had to keep from rolling my eyes.

This, to me, is kind of like hte mythos of MA. Some of you will disagree. Karate guys make the same motions, and some of them will be just as functional into old age as CMA "chi" guys are. Only, they didn't have fantastical notions of the cosmic effects of their MA practice on the universe as a whole (and therefore probably got more substance from their training). It's martial arts, people. The "chi flow" and "organ damage" quips seem to me irrelevant things, passed on by teachers who were taught that their way is the best way, and therefore press more importance into each motion than they probably should.

But what do I know? I'm a rook.

My Longfist teacher (who I have to quit, b/c I picked up a lucrative mural commission....sweet), told me he had perfect eyesight due to his chi flow. He said mine was blocked, and would fix my eyes if I could get the qi flowing. Well....how is chi going to change the shape of my eyes?

Physical consitution is a matter of the genetic lottery. And acupuncture can't cure brain cancer.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Here's a beginner's question for you (perhaps JP might chime in since we have the same instructors) because I'm just a blue sash:

In "Fei Foo Hu Tung" (Black Tiger Comes Out From The Cave), the yellow sash form, after the roundhouse kick, and before the cat stance, when you move your left leg forward to the cat stance, is that SUPPOSED to be a sweep? I seem to recall hearing that, but I don't see anyone doing that. They just move their leg to a cat stance.

Thanks for helping out a lowly blue sash!

I got this motion as a kind of "circle step", which I suppose I see how it could be confused/used as a sweep. But it's realy just a kind of weight transitioning technique. You're moving from tiger-bow to tiger-bow, and the circle step allows you to feel out the ground in front of you without committing to a step that might not be in your best interest in a fight where you might advance in such a manner (I like to advance in that manner) . More important is the motion of the hands during that "circle stepping". When done correclty, it provides a method of creating an angle of attack (kind of like an ippon). So the leg kind of circles around (as in a short transition to a low cat then forward into a bow.

[kwaichang]

It is the people who are insincere not the relidion. Familiarity with a book without the WORD is a waste of time. It boils down to Faith.
I have looked at outside sources and have found the Truth I was searching for, no need to look further. I have been criticized as being Philosophical and notice that none still understand what I am trying to say.
In the Japanese Okinawan arts thyere is the concept of breathing correctly or you can damage internal organs in the process of training. I can explain later. It boils dopwn to physiology and anatomy.
Scepticism is good if you are seeking truth , but when you have it no need to be tooooo sceptical or you miss the truth. KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

Well, I had my first session with GM Sin The' as he taught Atlanta the Golden Leopard (1st road) last night.

Although I had mellowed out some since I opened my can of worms, I watched him intensively for various reasons (critically, IMO). My Longfist teacher had impressed upon me the importance of structure in weight transitions, and the paramount importance of footwork, etc....and it improved me by leagues and miles. It was something I'd never gotten much of in SD, and hadn't seen in some people. I suppose I wanted to verify that that part of training....so integral to good MA and stances, in my opinion....was there at teh source. So I spent the entire 2 hours looking at GM Sin The's footwork to see if it was, indeed, what I had seen in "authentic" Shaolin Chuan classes, whihc I had from a Chinese dude who was about GM The's age.

Well, it was. GM Sin The' has superb footwork. Better than my Longfist teacher, in point of fact. Although I had major ethical/philosophical disagreements with GM Sin The' on the issue of expanding human lifespans, and genetic engineering (something that the Demosthenian in me desperately prodded me to interrupt and say....well, think about this keemosabee, yet failed to do b/c it wasn't a forum for argument and debate ), his MA are excellent, even at his age (I have a grandfather, who at 70 looks like he's on the brink of death---and GM Sin looks like he's in his 50's .......so maybe there is something to what he's saying....) . I think we'd have an interesting chat on the issue of genetics, western medicine, and writing. I'm diametrically opposed to his takes on every one of those issues..... .....but it would be fun. I love to argue with people, b/c it's actually conversation with a purpose, ya know?

Anyways, I don't remember much of the form (although it has much of the same motions as short forms, tigers, spinning clears of china hands, and WhiteMSTPeach...just 10X faster)...so it won't be hard to piece together later on.

The man is definately for real.

I think the coolest part of the weekend, however, was when one of the instructors of my instructors showed up to learn the form (from Phoenix) and helped teach our brown belt class. He gave me great pointers on tumbling.

And then.........he fought out of a broken leg stance. We've been talking about that stance lately on this forum. Well, this dude could fight out of it. If you kicked him, he'd pop the knee with a palm heel (really friggin hard) and stop the attack like a kneetrap. A roundhouse? Again, trapped at the knee, then a series of leg/ankle locks on a takedown (impressive groundfighting in CMA).....and it has mobility in the form of rolling. Flip that back ankle, so the bottom of hte foot pulls in, and you can roll around. It was really friggin' cool, and.....birdlike.

Then, it was his choice to practice chin-na. I've always thought my chin-na was good, and it prepped me for defense.

I found out I was wrong. He would wrench our joints and muscles to the point of pain where we normally tap out. Then he said: "Okay, now we can start. This is how the attack will be presented in reality." Well, I couldn't do the basics with that kind of pressure. Surprise....surprise....and I usually apply chin-na harder than others. The master of my school does chin-na this way, but few others do. Then he showed us the nuances of motion and body mechanics that make slipping out of holds so effortless and fluid. It was a real mind job.

Well, he showed our class how to do them properly when applied realistically (how I'll train them from now on, even with newbs)....and how to control for hte sake of retribution..... .....(ahhh....sweet retribution...one of the things I focus on in chin-na...keeping the holds intact for that sake).

Holy ****....I learned a lot this weekend that totally changed my view on practice, application, and movment.......and SD in general. And that strange broken leg stance......wow, you gotta love it.