Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Kung Pao]

MEat Shake....you need to chill, bro. The first MA I took was SD, and I quit after 2 years at brown belt--just like you. I went to several other CMA styles, and wound up in shuai chao for about a year, but moved back to stick with my crane teacher b/c he was the best I've ever met. You know what? I was able to use SD material in shaui chao with good results. .....shocker, right? And I'm not SD's biggest fan. But it ain't complete ****, hombre. And shaui Chao isn't exactly THE SHIZNIT par excellence.

Just because you couldn't use it doesn't mean nobody can. It was my first MA, and it taught me a helluvalot (material and depth). Some of hte fighters there were the best I've met...and I've met a lot. But the best fighters I have ever met were all MMA. Sorry charlie. But you know what, I can use my White Crane material against MMA fighters. I even use some SD, b/c that's my foundation. But most of theose guys are bigger, faster, and stronger, and they're excellent groundfighters, so they overwhelme me eventually. Not always, but usually (I'm man enough to admit that).

I do remember one thing in particular about SD. Their pressure point strikers were scary. I've learned a lot about Dim Mak over the years. But I've never seen (that is, felt) pain like some of their best fighters inflicted on me. I remember sparring a fourth degree once, and every two seconds he had me in a throat lock I couldn't reverse that put me down quick (and out, once).

This whole thread (I won't even try to read the whole thing....) is ridiculous. It works if you can use it. It doesn't if you can't. I've met horrible MMA fighters, but their best are the best I've met (because they're pro fighters). I've met horrible CMA guys, but the best are right up there, too (the only thing holding them back is they don't train like pros do). There are some badazz shuai chao guys, but they're no more badazz than anyone else, and would bet whipped by a BJJ guy, (at least, probably, since most SC ends with hitting the floor), but I've met Muay Thai guys that are BJJ killers, cuz they kick with authority. I trained in a camp with a Thai champ, and one kick from this guy had me injured on the sidelines (and dang, man, I was holding a shield.... ....).

Few of us could ever take on pro fighters. It's their job, their pride, and their life. We're all armchair Martial ARtists to them. So what is this SC vs. SD crap, man?

If you can use it, fine. If you can't use your SD material, congrats. Just means you suck at SD.

[Kung Pao]

Question: to all.

What does it mean to use your material?

I might not be able to pull off a series of consecutive crane kicks perched on one leg with a hand guarding high above my head, and the other sweeping back to protect my groin, but why the hell would I do that?

But if I grabbed your wrist or fingers (my favoritee, since most people don't protect against finger-wrenching) and locked it, raised it, and kicked you once in the rib (Liver 13 or 14-nasty place for a kick) or knee, it's the same thing. The extra kicks in a form help you with balance and strength conditioning. The ways you need to condition are often encoded in a form. (to practice for leg strength and stability, hold a hanging leg stance and fire off kicks above your head---sheesh, I'll recommend that to everyone. Awesome leg/balance exercise.) Fighting in a style doesn't necessarily mean flapping like a crane, dancing like a mantis, or ripping liike a tiger. It might only be three or four solid techniques, or variations on punches in a form. As my teacher always says: "Fighting should look like fighting." It's the linear/circular philsophies, body positioning, etc that really determines mastership of a style. My teacher looks like a crane when he does his forms. His shaking jin is amazing. If you grab him in any shaui chao grab (I have), he can shake you off with no effort.
But hwen he fights (he has family/professional relations who do MMA, and sometimes train with us---hardcore guys, they are), you see crane concepts and power generation. But you wouldn't say he looked like a crane, because he doesn't stay perched on one leg for ten minutes like in the movies. BUt to a trained eye, you'd say....holy ****, that man knows his crane. His strikes are crane strikes, but he can box straight up using what he's learned, and he's never studied anything except crane. You have to play with your forms, and dissect them, and train with others to attain understanding (especially the latter). Nothing will ever be more effective than a straight punch or a jab. Every MA uses them in some variation. Boxing didn't create it. It's in your CMA forms, too. For SD guys, your #1 punch (sparring tech) will always be your most effective strike, hands down.

And for hte record, SD's crane isn't that far off the mark. Different stylings, gave me my break, and still part of my daily repetoire. Owe it a lot.


Crane generates power through looseness, softness, and whipping power. It's footwork covers ground, best in mid-range or close up, IMO. Forms teach you what attacks are good for certain ranges. They teach you concepts.

You have to employ them. But employing your material doesn't entail imitating an animal, like in your forms. I don't flap my wings, squawk, and make funky neck movements. But my crane is effective, nonetheless.

[Baqualin]

Question: to all.

What does it mean to use your material?

I might not be able to pull off a series of consecutive crane kicks perched on one leg with a hand guarding high above my head, and the other sweeping back to protect my groin, but why the hell would I do that?

But if I grabbed your wrist or fingers (my favoritee, since most people don't protect against finger-wrenching) and locked it, raised it, and kicked you once in the rib (Liver 13 or 14-nasty place for a kick) or knee, it's the same thing. The extra kicks in a form help you with balance and strength conditioning. The ways you need to condition are often encoded in a form. (to practice for leg strength and stability, hold a hanging leg stance and fire off kicks above your head---sheesh, I'll recommend that to everyone. Awesome leg/balance exercise.) Fighting in a style doesn't necessarily mean flapping like a crane, dancing like a mantis, or ripping liike a tiger. It might only be three or four solid techniques, or variations on punches in a form. As my teacher always says: "Fighting should look like fighting." It's the linear/circular philsophies, body positioning, etc that really determines mastership of a style. My teacher looks like a crane when he does his forms. His shaking jin is amazing. If you grab him in any shaui chao grab (I have), he can shake you off with no effort.
But hwen he fights (he has family/professional relations who do MMA, and sometimes train with us---hardcore guys, they are), you see crane concepts and power generation. But you wouldn't say he looked like a crane, because he doesn't stay perched on one leg for ten minutes like in the movies. BUt to a trained eye, you'd say....holy ****, that man knows his crane. His strikes are crane strikes, but he can box straight up using what he's learned, and he's never studied anything except crane. You have to play with your forms, and dissect them, and train with others to attain understanding (especially the latter). Nothing will ever be more effective than a straight punch or a jab. Every MA uses them in some variation. Boxing didn't create it. It's in your CMA forms, too. For SD guys, your #1 punch (sparring tech) will always be your most effective strike, hands down.

And for hte record, SD's crane isn't that far off the mark. Different stylings, gave me my break, and still part of my daily repetoire. Owe it a lot.


Crane generates power through looseness, softness, and whipping power. It's footwork covers ground, best in mid-range or close up, IMO. Forms teach you what attacks are good for certain ranges. They teach you concepts.

You have to employ them. But employing your material doesn't entail imitating an animal, like in your forms. I don't flap my wings, squawk, and make funky neck movements. But my crane is effective, nonetheless.

Your teacher has taught you well....you have a true understanding of what forms are about.....something the majority miss out on

It's also apparent that you did learn from SD....your right about ole #1, it can be used in a variety of ways to where you don't see it till it hits you. Elder Master Eric Smith has Mastered sparring tech #1 & you can't stop it. So simple yet so effective. GMS has recently taught the Shaolin Ground Monkey & students who do alot of ground fighting are using some of the postures (not attacks) very successfully to compliment their ground fighting skills.
BQ

[kwaichang]

I will be in texas in July or august , wil you be there MS ?? KC
You never replied so I thought I would post it again KC

[Meat Shake]

KC- july or august possibly, but not likely. I move back for good in December.

"And shaui Chao isn't exactly THE SHIZNIT par excellence."

... Never said it was, and this is exactly why I supplement with BJJ and Muay Thai.

"Few of us could ever take on pro fighters. It's their job, their pride, and their life."

This is my aim within the next 2 years, to go pro. Its not SD vs SC... SC is my base, I train on more of an MMA platform. I have to stack enough money to safely work part time for the better part of a year and off I go.

and LOL at you guys all getting so worked up. A majority of the reason I give SD so much sh!t is because its the only art Ive walked into that told me "This is the ultimate complete art. You need NOTHING else. Ground fighting is useless, a well trained SD student will not go to the ground, yadayadayada..."
and this same attitude has been displayed a number of times on this forum. Look at my join date dude. Look up posts by the member who owns the moniker Shaolin-Do. Thats me. They are OOOLD.... I fought to prove everyone wrong that SD was great, until I was pointed in the direction of some actual fighting.
And no, in the end, its not any better or worse than 90% of what is out there, its just the general "ultimate martial art" attitude that earns it so much crap. Im sure SD does have one or two competent fighters to every thousand that train it, as I was training to fight full contact outside of SD for the short while I trained it. I like to argue, and I do that here. Its fun, and its funny.
I know Shuai Chiao isnt "the shiznit", but its fantastic for clinch and throws. Muay thai is better for striking, which is exactly why I like to work with MT fighters any and every chance I get, and BJJ rules on the ground, which is exactly why within the next few weeks after I finish my next album Ill be starting up again with a local pro fighting team.
Once again, the reason I give SD so much sh!t is because time and time again I have been told that its ultimate and complete, and its not. None of the people I trained SC with ever told me it was "complete". They just always said that if you are fighting on the ground your SC needs work, but never once told me to omit the training.
Hell, there was a rule at one of our SC tournies in austin that if you were on the ground for more than 10 seconds kirk and paul would rush you both from the sides and start kicking both opponents, because thats what its like in life.

Edit: That being said, the SC I trained DID go to the ground, just for clarification.

[Meat Shake]

Also, JP, thanks for the link and props for putting it out there.

The MMA clips didnt work. The page opens, but when I click play it just says connecting, loads, then says ready. You hit play and it just says connecting again...

Any youtube links of it?

KC- judging by your profile, you really must think you are a hard@ss. Hitman eh? Training in the Shaolin temple huh? Good for you.

"It is my opinion that MS is using a poor way of explaining he prefers a style that is geared just for fighting. But he is ignorant of SD if he thinks there is no one that can fight in SD"

Your opinion is correct. Im sure there are a couple of people in SD who can fight, but it didnt come from learning SD. The fighters would be fighters anyhow. Ive already said that half of the reason Im even on these retarded threads is because sometimes I get bored, and its fun to get peoples feathers in a ruffle. You guys continue to let me bother you, so I continue to do so.

[Baqualin]

Also, JP, thanks for the link and props for putting it out there.

The MMA clips didnt work. The page opens, but when I click play it just says connecting, loads, then says ready. You hit play and it just says connecting again...

Any youtube links of it?

KC- judging by your profile, you really must think you are a hard@ss. Hitman eh? Training in the Shaolin temple huh? Good for you.

"It is my opinion that MS is using a poor way of explaining he prefers a style that is geared just for fighting. But he is ignorant of SD if he thinks there is no one that can fight in SD"

Your opinion is correct. Im sure there are a couple of people in SD who can fight, but it didnt come from learning SD. The fighters would be fighters anyhow. Ive already said that half of the reason Im even on these retarded threads is because sometimes I get bored, and its fun to get peoples feathers in a ruffle. You guys continue to let me bother you, so I continue to do so.

Most of us are on here for the same reason MS....it's fun to pick at each other....keep us posted on your fights....FYI there's a MMA cage fight coming up soon in Ashland, Ky & there will be an SD participant there might want to check it out

[Meat Shake]

If you can get a video of it Id love to watch.

College debts make traveling more of a wish than a reality.

[Baqualin]

If you can get a video of it Id love to watch.

College debts make traveling more of a wish than a reality.

I hope to do that.
BQ

[kwaichang]

No I dont think I am a Hard a$$ but I am willing to spar you to show you some of the SD can fight will I win , Maybe but i believe you will know you have been in a scrap.
PS i will be 49 in August and instead of a mid life crises Red Sports car i thought it would be fun to just kick young punks a$$e$ who have big mouths. want a go? KC
Please be kind with my old brittle bones.

[Meat Shake]

heh...
Dude, you are old enough that Id feel bad for beating you down.
But sure, when I come back to texas if you are around Ill gladly smite you. There has been more than one instance in my life where I had to show an older gent that "young punks" can dismantle a "tough ass old man" with ease....

[CaptinPickAxe]

Time for a little dojo busting, eh shake? I can't believe these guys get so butt hurt over knowing that they aren't training in "THE ONE TRUE COMPLETE MARTIAL ART!!!" Get a fucking clue. You'd be a fool to believe that there is any one true art. Most of you shaolin dopes (except the unspoken few...you know who you are) are so closed minded and share many triats with cult members walking to the culling. Think for yourself and realize that you are being lead...

[John Many Jars]

On a semi-related note, I was talking to a pretty new white belt yesterday and it turns out he's studied San Shao. It sounds like a pretty cool art.

[kwaichang]

Cool Sounds Good To Me. Kc Ill Be In Touch

[MasterKiller]

On a semi-related note, I was talking to a pretty new white belt yesterday and it turns out he's studied San Shao. It sounds like a pretty cool art.

San Shou kickboxing, or San Soo the too-deadly-to-spar style? There is a difference.