Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[godzillakungfu]

CSC folks, what's the deal with this form? I love our monkey forms, and I'm curious where/when the West acquired this form. I've heard it was taught to them by someone on the China trip awhile back, and didn't actually come from Grandmaster Sin. Anyone have this form and want to share the basics of what it's all about: where'd it come from, what's it like?

That's kind of funny. Ha Ha funny not sarcastic funny.

We heard the same thing about the Chen Tai Chi Fan form.

As I recall, it was offered back in 91-92.

[tattooedmonk]

it was one of Master Hsiang's forms. It is a basic set with some nice techniques. classic monkey moves arm drag take downs, rolling, monkey paw wrist strikes.

[Baqualin]

it was one of Master Hsiang's forms. It is a basic set with some nice techniques. classic monkey moves arm drag take downs, rolling, monkey paw wrist strikes.

Didn't want to mention that but I think your correct.
BQ

[Sal Canzonieri]

I noticed the SD does a form that my system does, called Lien Wu Chang (linked 5 palms). SD sometimes calls it Whirling Palms too.

I don't know where SD got if from but it is a form from the Di Tang style, of Shandong province. The style goes back to the Song Dynasty.
Di Tang is known for its very low to the ground fighting movements, this form is from their above ground level material (not all the style's forms are on the ground). It does have some very low sweeps.

I don't know if it is same exact form as the one that SD does, but I think it is, because whenever I have heard someone from SD describe it, it sounds like the form I know.

Do you SD people know where SD got it from?

It's a northern style, not southern as SD has said about this form.

It's based on Tong Bei monkey / ape movements and can be done with the Dao / knife (even the double Dao).

Tell me more about this Lien Wu Chang (Tsang) form you do, and I will tell you if it the same as the official one of this style. Let's see if it is indeed the same form.
It is not a Shaolin form.

[Leto]

I have a theory that many, if not most of the forms done in SD are from Shandong province. It is interesting to note that there is "shantung kuntao" from Indonesia as well.

The Lien Wu Chang I learned from CSC has several low sweeps, and features turning and spinning to attack and cover ground. I don't think it's a southern form, either. A couple techniques which are repeated throughout the form are a hopping forward front sweep followed by a low back sweep with elbow, and a spinning front sweep/back sweep combo. also, an arm whirling takedown into a low crouched monkey sort of stance, followed by spinning double kick. Most of the palm attacks are from a forward bow and arrow stance, which should be pretty low.
If I had a video camera I'd show you how I do it.

I doubt it would be identical to anything currently practiced by another style. The overall concept might be very similar, though. There could be indentical techniques in different orders, depending on the emphasis and interpretation they are given.

Is this from a ditang style like yours? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvNSDBapxzU

This form has movement and attacks very similar to the lien wu chang I know. some things we don't have, and the sweeps are performed in a different way, but very very similar means of moving/spinning. there are techniques in here that aren't in mine, or maybe were taught with such different emphasis that they are unrecongizeable. But this definately looks like a relative...three or four generations removed maybe.

[Leto]

I'm a google maniac!

Is this it? Is this the "official" lian wu chang from ditang quan?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmpcuyKJpEI

It is very similar to the one taught by CSC/SD. techniques are performed slightly differently. It has the hopping forward sweep, the spinning double kick, inside crescent kicks, the same style of body turning and palm attacks.
I am quite excited about this, to find another system with forms so close. it always bothered me that no one in SD or CSC knows or will tell us the lineage or origin of any of the forms (apart from common knowledge legends, like from Zhan SanFeng, Yue Fei, Wang Lang, etc, and the 2 masters of the SD lineage).
This is a most promising "lead" in this mystery. At least one of the The brothers' teachers must have been a shantung kuntao guy...shandong province is also the home of praying mantis styles, the same teacher could be the one who passed those forms as well.

[Sal Canzonieri]

I'm a google maniac!

Is this it? Is this the "official" lian wu chang from ditang quan?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmpcuyKJpEI

It is very similar to the one taught by CSC/SD. techniques are performed slightly differently. It has the hopping forward sweep, the spinning double kick, inside crescent kicks, the same style of body turning and palm attacks.
I am quite excited about this, to find another system with forms so close. it always bothered me that no one in SD or CSC knows or will tell us the lineage or origin of any of the forms (apart from common knowledge legends, like from Zhan SanFeng, Yue Fei, Wang Lang, etc, and the 2 masters of the SD lineage).
This is a most promising "lead" in this mystery. At least one of the The brothers' teachers must have been a shantung kuntao guy...shandong province is also the home of praying mantis styles, the same teacher could be the one who passed those forms as well.

WOW! Thanks for finding that!
That's the form, pretty much, all the postures, just done like a beginner student, but it's that form alright.
Thanks for finding that!

And, yes, this form is taught as part of some praying mantis in the system. They also do The Tiger Swallow form, and some other N Mantis forms.
It's the Ditang Mantis system from Shandong.

I've learned the forms from Master Tang, from Taiwan, when he visted NYC, he is coming back this July or so.

I have some tapes from the 1970s of Patrick Hodges doing other forms from the system.

Well, there you go!

[Sal Canzonieri]

I have a theory that many, if not most of the forms done in SD are from Shandong province. It is interesting to note that there is "shantung kuntao" from Indonesia as well.

The Lien Wu Chang I learned from CSC has several low sweeps, and features turning and spinning to attack and cover ground. I don't think it's a southern form, either. A couple techniques which are repeated throughout the form are a hopping forward front sweep followed by a low back sweep with elbow, and a spinning front sweep/back sweep combo. also, an arm whirling takedown into a low crouched monkey sort of stance, followed by spinning double kick. Most of the palm attacks are from a forward bow and arrow stance, which should be pretty low.
If I had a video camera I'd show you how I do it.

I doubt it would be identical to anything currently practiced by another style. The overall concept might be very similar, though. There could be indentical techniques in different orders, depending on the emphasis and interpretation they are given.

Is this from a ditang style like yours? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvNSDBapxzU

This form has movement and attacks very similar to the lien wu chang I know. some things we don't have, and the sweeps are performed in a different way, but very very similar means of moving/spinning. there are techniques in here that aren't in mine, or maybe were taught with such different emphasis that they are unrecongizeable. But this definately looks like a relative...three or four generations removed maybe.

That is the same form, this is more like how my system does it.

[godzillakungfu]

That is the same form, this is more like how my system does it.

Wow, I'd say there are subtle differences but, it is really close to the west version I learned.

I'd say, minus a few different angles, it was about 90% similar.

[Crushing Fist]

I suppose the natural question would be:

Does the style which has this Lian Wu Zhang also have a related form which translates to something like "Connecting Fist" or "Interconnected Fist" ?

Jie Quan or Che Chien?

I've been looking around for some history on these forms for awhile and haven't found anything until this.

They are referred to as "China Hand" style and I have heard of them being related to tiger style. However, to me they have always seemed very much like a longfist type of style.

It has always been a bit mysterious to me, though I do like them quite a lot.

[Sal Canzonieri]

I suppose the natural question would be:

Does the style which has this Lian Wu Zhang also have a related form which translates to something like "Connecting Fist" or "Interconnected Fist" ?

Jie Quan or Che Chien?

I've been looking around for some history on these forms for awhile and haven't found anything until this.

They are referred to as "China Hand" style and I have heard of them being related to tiger style. However, to me they have always seemed very much like a longfist type of style.

It has always been a bit mysterious to me, though I do like them quite a lot.

Jie Quan is a common beginner form taught at the famous Jingwu Association of SHANDONG province (the school in the Fearless film). It's not an old form. Its an amalgamation of various long fist forms. The Jingwu school has released for their anniversary a set of books on their beginner forms, you can see (learn?) this set very easily in these books. Plumflower carries them, the whole set.

Eagle Claw people use this Jie Quan form as a beginner form too, with eagle claw ideas.

The Jie means the same thing as Jeet as in Jeet Kune Do, Bruce Lee's style.

China Hand is Wah Quan, it is not a Wah Quan form. Nope.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Wow, I'd say there are subtle differences but, it is really close to the west version I learned.

I'd say, minus a few different angles, it was about 90% similar.

This version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmpcuyKJpEI

is missing some important transition movements.

This is a two person form and without the correct transition movements, you will get your ass kicked by the other person doing the other side of the form (the form splits into two, one half against the other half).

And, this version, although done MUCH better is also missing the same transition moves:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvNSDBapxzU

SO, that means that they do not want you to know them.
First time I was taught the form they left these moves out too (students of the teacher). Second and third time we went over the form (by the teacher and the teacher's teacher), I had to re-learn the form with the missing movements but back in and what their function was.

Anyways, thanks for finding these, they are great memory joggers for the form overall.

[Leto]

The way they may be related to eachother and to the black tiger forms taught in SD is if they are from Shandong. Our black tiger forms also include a lot of low/ground techniques, I wonder if they are related to the ditang quan mentioned as well? Sal, does your ditang quan have any forms called black tiger?
Jie Quan and Jin Gang Fu Hu Quan seem very different from Lian Wu Zhang, though they are closer to eachother. You often do see lineages which include forms from other traditions that don't necessarily "match" their core curriculum...like when a master will learn something from one of his friends, and teach that to his students out of respect for his friend's skill (or something like that). Or two families come together through marriage, or something, and add forms from both into a new "style".

Assuming our black tiger forms are really from Shandong, as we are told they are...then we have : 4 black tigers, lian wu zhang, probably 4 or 5 mantis forms (most of which are only taught in seminars by GM The and the elder masters), all from Shandong.

four roads of Hua quan is definately from northern chang quan...is chang quan and ditang mantis sometimes taught together?

[ninthdrunk]

Honestly, with the lian u chang forms, if I didn't know they were supposed to be similar forms, I might not even draw the connection based on the performance. The SD forms (as usual) seem to have some of the same moves, and elements of movement, but the overall flow and body mechanics are strikingly different.

That's just my take.

[Sal Canzonieri]

The way they may be related to eachother and to the black tiger forms taught in SD is if they are from Shandong. Our black tiger forms also include a lot of low/ground techniques, I wonder if they are related to the ditang quan mentioned as well? Sal, does your ditang quan have any forms called black tiger?
Jie Quan and Jin Gang Fu Hu Quan seem very different from Lian Wu Zhang, though they are closer to eachother. You often do see lineages which include forms from other traditions that don't necessarily "match" their core curriculum...like when a master will learn something from one of his friends, and teach that to his students out of respect for his friend's skill (or something like that). Or two families come together through marriage, or something, and add forms from both into a new "style".

Assuming our black tiger forms are really from Shandong, as we are told they are...then we have : 4 black tigers, lian wu zhang, probably 4 or 5 mantis forms (most of which are only taught in seminars by GM The and the elder masters), all from Shandong.

four roads of Hua quan is definately from northern chang quan...is chang quan and ditang mantis sometimes taught together?

Hmm, Black Tiger is from Shandong / Shantung province, yes.

Both Shandong Black Tiger and Shandong Ditang Quan come from the same school, its one system, based on aspects of Tai Tzu Quan that were elaborated on and became their own styles and sets. In other words, they are from the same Long Fist system dating to Song Dynasty and now based in Shandong.

Four Roads of Hua Quan is FLOWER Hua, not Wah Quan.
It is a Northern Long Fist system, it comes from Gan Feng Shi originally, it is a mixture of Hard Shaolin and Soft Emei Quan. There is no one "Northern Chang Quan" system, there are many systems that are "nothern chang quan" in essense. But not THE system, one of many.
It has nothing to do at all with Shandong styles (Black Tiger, Ditang, Tai Tzu, Hong Quan, Mantis, etc).
Completely different system with its' own rules.
Plumflower has VCDs of all 4 roads.

Jie Quan and Jin Gang Quan are not related to these other styles as well.
Jie Quan is essentially an Eagle Claw form, modern at that.

Northern MANTIS CHANG QUAN is a specific style, now taught commonly in Taiwan that collected a series of forms together from Shandong schools.
it is easy to find info on this style on the internet, it is well known in Taiwan.
Look up Gao Dao-Sheng, who is from Shandong, like: http://www.kungfuleuven.be/main_kungfu.htm

Some Tai Tzu Chang Quan people teach Black Tiger was well in Taiwan and Shandong. Some Long Fist people teach Black Tiger and Northern Mantis together instead.

Some people say the Sin The got his Black Tiger form from a book that came out in the late 60/ early 70s, called Black Tiger Intersectional Boxing. It's supposed to be a Mantis form.

Beggar Style has Black Tiger form as well, that form is from Tai Tzu in its roots.