Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[kwaichang]

Please explain your biomechanical concept of double and single weighted. KC

[Sal Canzonieri]

Leto, southern Chinese martial arts are full of styles that look a lot like Okinawan karate.

The Go Ju Ryu style is the Five Ancestors style of Southern martial arts, some material.
The Southern Tai Tzu style is where the San Chin form comes from originally.

Five Ancestors got the form from them, as one of the 5 ancestors is the Southern Tai Tzu style.

The Beggar's style of southern china is very much like karate as well, and Five Ancestors is a sister style to Beggar's style.
One of the founder's of Okinawan karate traveled to China and learned Beggar's style and Five Ancestor's style. Spies hid out as beggar.
If read many articles about this topic and these events.
There has been extensive research done on the origins of the Okinawan forms and styles and their direct correlation to specific Southern Chinese martial arts.

You can find them on the internet if you dig around.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Please explain your biomechanical concept of double and single weighted. KC

That when stepping from movement to movement/posture to posture there is no "stopping" posture actually
AND
the body weight is never on two legs at the same time, only one leg when stepping from one movement to another.
The supporting leg's waist fold, the inguinal fold, the Kua in chinese, is always folded in and it opens and closes as the body weight moves from one step to another step.

The fundamental difference between traditional natural CMA and all other things (karate, modern wushu crap, etc, etc) is purely the concept of being single weighted at all times, the waist and the shoulders never being in two opposing directions, the arms not moving independently of the waist, the knee always being in alignment with the front of the toes.
Here read this, this covers the topic:

http://www.bgtent.com/naturalcma/CMAarticle2.htm

[kwaichang]

Ok, I read the article and the same biomechanics are emphasised in Japanese Karate the only difference is the moment of Kime in the Japanese arts. as far as SD is concerned the object is to do what is explained in your article with transitional movements but I will say it is not often emphasised. KC

[Leto]

I'm aware of the correlations between naha te/goju ryu and southern chinese styles like five ancestors and white crane. Shorin ryu/shuri te has less clear correlations. I'll have to look for that article about the Peichurrin and the general's book. Believe me, I have dug around a lot, and there's not a whole lot besides theories about what styles specifically influenced shorin ryu. goju ryu and uechi ryu are much closer to their chinese roots than shorin ryu is.

But this is all off the topic...I'm not questioning karate's Chinese roots, just looking for specifics.
It's the same with SD, except it is much closer to the root Chinese styles. I think most of its forms have matches or near matches in other styles that are currently practiced. Looking at these other styles might tell more about how the SD forms fit together, where to look for more instruction, how to fill in the gaps.
At least in the way I was taught, there are gaps. No offense to the SD believers, but it is obvious to me that we're not doing the forms correctly, (at least according to the way they are classically practiced).
Did GM The or his teachers make innovations that they believe improved upon the classic forms? Did they not know them well enough? Did they just not bother to teach the "real stuff" to us westerners? Whatever the case is, I want to know as much as I can.

before anyone says I should focus on training and not so much on seeking knowledge:
Seeking knowledge is not opposed to sincere practice...it's about adding elements of practice that are useful and removing those that are incorrect or detrimental. You can practice hard at the same time as learning new things and modifying your practice.

[Kung Pao]

Regarding biomechanics, the weight shifting/stepping issue was the first one I had to deal with when stepping into a "purist" CMA style. SD does misso ut on that, but it can be performed it without much trouble. I think that's why SD seems slpooy to some people.

[BlueTravesty]

As a non-SD'er, it kinda makes sense that SD would employ such a structure though- simply because it has in its curriculum so many different systems. Each of these systems emphasize not only different fighting strategies and ways of stepping and transitioning, but also radically different body structures. For example, you have Hua Quan, which is a Northern style. The typical "northern" structure is back straight and in some cases, arched to align with the tailbone, chin down and in, lots of longer-range strikes and kicks, with some throws close in. Then you also have Tiger Crane, a southern form from Hung Gar- the Hung Gar structure is a more "hunched in" head-on approach with more short-range striking, and less grappling. In stances, the butt is tucked in. My guess is to keep all the styles harmonized, the SD currciculum uses a "neutral" posture, body structure, and way of stepping that avoids the particulars of the individual systems so that one does not build contradictory habits.

Just an outsider's theory.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Well, there are so many thousands of people all over the USA now that are either in SD or have been in SD, so it no longer makes sense to keep saying "SD sucks", whether it is true or not is not doing anyone any service right now.

Regardless, SD has Chinese Martial Arts roots and uses forms/sets from various styles.

The most positive thing I can do for any current or former SD person is to help them discover and learn about the original traditional natural Chinese Martial Arts roots of their forms.

Also, learning about the ancient ways to do the sets and body mechanics is an ENORMOUS help making one the best martial arts one can be. By understanding WHY you do something in a set you will be able to apply the movements and make them part of your second nature much more easily and faster, thus you will accelerate your martial arts abilities and your training.

The fact that I have demolished anyone that has ever attacked me I attribute solely to the fact that I have internalized WHY movements work from spending so much time (over 30 years) researching, analyzing, and applying the most ancient and traditional methods, sets, and body mechanics of CMA.

And, the fact that I have been able to save people's lives via martial arts I again attribute to the same thing.

The study of why and where traditional CMA movements come from and their purpose allowed me to have a deep enough knowledge and ability to be able to revive accident victims when nothing else would have worked. Martial Art movement with out nei gong built into the movements is dead movement. It might look like martial art, but it is only dancing.

[Judge Pen]

As a non-SD'er, it kinda makes sense that SD would employ such a structure though- simply because it has in its curriculum so many different systems. Each of these systems emphasize not only different fighting strategies and ways of stepping and transitioning, but also radically different body structures. For example, you have Hua Quan, which is a Northern style. The typical "northern" structure is back straight and in some cases, arched to align with the tailbone, chin down and in, lots of longer-range strikes and kicks, with some throws close in. Then you also have Tiger Crane, a southern form from Hung Gar- the Hung Gar structure is a more "hunched in" head-on approach with more short-range striking, and less grappling. In stances, the butt is tucked in. My guess is to keep all the styles harmonized, the SD currciculum uses a "neutral" posture, body structure, and way of stepping that avoids the particulars of the individual systems so that one does not build contradictory habits.

Just an outsider's theory.

I think this is an unintentional consequence of the various styles that are taught in SD. By the way, the "neutral" posture you reference is actually the postures taught in our short-form (which I've described as the back-bone of SD). It's not that the different principles of Hua or Tiger-Crane are not taught, its just that when its said and then done, people tend to go back to their foundations.

Sal, interesting article on "double-weighted" body mechanics. I'm sure, however, we can put our heads together and find CMA styles that employ double-weighted mechanics. CMA is a large and diverse place.

[Baqualin]

Well, there are so many thousands of people all over the USA now that are either in SD or have been in SD, so it no longer makes sense to keep saying "SD sucks", whether it is true or not is not doing anyone any service right now.

Regardless, SD has Chinese Martial Arts roots and uses forms/sets from various styles.

The most positive thing I can do for any current or former SD person is to help them discover and learn about the original traditional natural Chinese Martial Arts roots of their forms.

Also, learning about the ancient ways to do the sets and body mechanics is an ENORMOUS help making one the best martial arts one can be. By understanding WHY you do something in a set you will be able to apply the movements and make them part of your second nature much more easily and faster, thus you will accelerate your martial arts abilities and your training.

The fact that I have demolished anyone that has ever attacked me I attribute solely to the fact that I have internalized WHY movements work from spending so much time (over 30 years) researching, analyzing, and applying the most ancient and traditional methods, sets, and body mechanics of CMA.

And, the fact that I have been able to save people's lives via martial arts I again attribute to the same thing.

The study of why and where traditional CMA movements come from and their purpose allowed me to have a deep enough knowledge and ability to be able to revive accident victims when nothing else would have worked. Martial Art movement with out nei gong built into the movements is dead movement. It might look like martial art, but it is only dancing.

Thanks for your attitude Sal....most all SDers are very dedicated to the CMA's and any insight or constructive criticism you have is more than welcome
A lot of the problems with SD is the size of our organization...by the time a form gets passed on by various teachers it is slightly changed each time from person to person...it's no longer one or two teachers, teaching everyone
BQ

[Sal Canzonieri]

I think this is an unintentional consequence of the various styles that are taught in SD. By the way, the "neutral" posture you reference is actually the postures taught in our short-form (which I've described as the back-bone of SD). It's not that the different principles of Hua or Tiger-Crane are not taught, its just that when its said and then done, people tend to go back to their foundations.

Sal, interesting article on "double-weighted" body mechanics. I'm sure, however, we can put our heads together and find CMA styles that employ double-weighted mechanics. CMA is a large and diverse place.

If a CMA style "became" double-weighted over time via "playing telephone" and doing things the lazy or ignorant way, then this is more a reflect of teacher's screwing this up than a CMA style that is "Supposed" to be double weighted.
Double weighted means death, as anyone that knows sword sets understands (hopefully).

What might appear as a double-weighted CMA, such as southern CMA that are used on boats (Southern Tai Tzu, beggar's style, Wing Chun, etc) are in actuality using the body as a surfer or skateboarder would (or like when you are standing on a subway floor without having a pole to hold on to), which means you are shifting weight to one side of the other very smoothly. If you stayed completely double weighted when subway surfing, you would tip over.

[Crushing Fist]

Sal - I am very interested in your understanding of body mechanics.


One things I would like to clear up is this:

You said that Karate is double weighted

You also said that double weighted means death.


The natural inference is that you feel karate to be at best misguided, and at worst completely useless.

Could you reconcile your meaning of these two points to make it a bit more clear?


For the record, I have been taught in SD not to be double weighted in most circumstances.

[Lamassu]

What might appear as a double-weighted CMA, such as southern CMA that are used on boats (Southern Tai Tzu, beggar's style, Wing Chun, etc) are in actuality using the body as a surfer or skateboarder would (or like when you are standing on a subway floor without having a pole to hold on to), which means you are shifting weight to one side of the other very smoothly. If you stayed completely double weighted when subway surfing, you would tip over.

Kewl! I thought I was the only one who subway surfed (or 'L' surfing here in Chicago). It was very difficult at first, but I learned how to shift my body weight in accordance with the g-forces in play and now find my stances are more firmly rooted.

Everything is Training!!!

[Sal Canzonieri]

Sal - I am very interested in your understanding of body mechanics.


One things I would like to clear up is this:

You said that Karate is double weighted

You also said that double weighted means death.


The natural inference is that you feel karate to be at best misguided, and at worst completely useless.

Could you reconcile your meaning of these two points to make it a bit more clear?


For the record, I have been taught in SD not to be double weighted in most circumstances.

Not that karate sucks, Okinawan Karate is great.

Just that much modern mcDojo 'karate' has by process of playing telephone watered down and all double weighted.

By death I mean that you simply cannot on the street do double weighted moves, you will be anchored with a strong stance in only one direction. Ancient sources always implied that double weightedness would cause your death. IN a confrontation you have to be as nimble AND flexibly rooted as a bull fighter is.

Also even if not double weighted there has to be smooth flow, like a leveraging machine, so that energy is not cut off between the movements.
The action is BETWEEN the postures, not the postures themselves in a form.
The postures are only transition movements.

Modern karate thinks of Horse stance, bow stance, etc as posture to "stop" at, like stations, when doing a kata. Whereas, real CMA uses postures when going through someone, they are used in action not frozen, the action between the postures do the real work and the postures are transition movements to the next flowing part.

[Crushing Fist]

Not that karate sucks, Okinawan Karate is great.

Just that much modern mcDojo 'karate' has by process of playing telephone watered down and all double weighted.

By death I mean that you simply cannot on the street do double weighted moves, you will be anchored with a strong stance in only one direction. Ancient sources always implied that double weightedness would cause your death. IN a confrontation you have to be as nimble AND flexibly rooted as a bull fighter is.

Also even if not double weighted there has to be smooth flow, like a leveraging machine, so that energy is not cut off between the movements.
The action is BETWEEN the postures, not the postures themselves in a form.
The postures are only transition movements.

Modern karate thinks of Horse stance, bow stance, etc as posture to "stop" at, like stations, when doing a kata. Whereas, real CMA uses postures when going through someone, they are used in action not frozen, the action between the postures do the real work and the postures are transition movements to the next flowing part.

Yes, I agree with all of this.

I think that any martial art, done well, will have these principles.