Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Judge Pen]

I agree KW. I noticed no similarities in the form either.

Long time, no posts. Good to see you still check things out around here. How's training?

[Golden Tiger]

Long time, no posts. Good to see you still check things out around here. How's training?

Yeah, I'm still lurking in the background. Training is good, of course if I told you anymore, I would have to kill ya

Hope all in well for you and yours down south.

[Judge Pen]

Yeah, I'm still lurking in the background. Training is good, of course if I told you anymore, I would have to kill ya

Hope all in well for you and yours down south.

Going well. Still working on 4th, but I'm getting closer. Training with a baby to distract me is interesting.

[Kung Pao]

Wow Kung Pao what did you learn no mantis in SD even looks like that at all KC

I suppose my only excuse is, it's been a very, very long time.

[Kung Pao]

I went back and read some of the old posts on this thread never really did before, but I was bored. Apparently, a lot of people take exception to Shaolin-Do's contention that hinese Martial Arts were outlawed in Indonesia somewhere in the middle of hte century.

I have a bunch of old issues of Inside Kungfu Magazine that I bought featureing Grandmaster The when I was still in that style a long time ago wen it was cool to see your GM in a magazine back then. Shaolin -Do was in that magazine. In November 1987, James Halladay the writer of the articlal stated quite clearly that the reason the art adopted Japanese trappings was in order to avoid negative publicity due to intolerance displayed towards Chinese by the Indonszns. There is no mention of illegal practice or laws.

So which is it? Was it outlawed, and so adopted Jaanese styling? Or was it just to "fit in" to avoid negative publicity?

Another question: is Sin himself Chinese, or Indonesian, ethnically speaking?

Just curious. It's been a long time. If this isn't a touchy subject for you guys, i'm interested to know. Might settle a beef or two.

[MasterKiller]

Sin came to the U.S. in 1966.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Ch...n_in_Indonesia

• PP 10/1959, which forced Chinese Indonesian to close their businesses by 1 January 1960 and relocate in urban areas.
• Presidium Directive 127/U/Kep/12/1966 that explicitly requires Chinese Indonesian to adopt Indonesian-sounding names.
• Cabinet Presidium Instruction No. 37/U/IN/6/1967, which prohibits further residency or work permits to new Chinese immigrants, their wives, or children; freezing any capital raised by "foreigners" in Indonesia; closure of "foreign" schools except for diplomatic corps and their families; the number of Indonesian students must be the majority and in proportion to "foreigners" in any state schools; and that implementation of the "Chinese issue" will henceforth be the responsibility of the minister for political affairs.
• Presidential Instruction No. 14/1967 (Inpres No. 14/1967) on Chinese Religion, Beliefs, and Traditions, which effectively ban any Chinese literatures and cultures in Indonesia, including the prohibition of Chinese characters. Although Chinese names are not explicitly mentioned, "newly naturalized" Indonesian Chinese were strongly advised to do so. (Annulled by former president Abdurrahman Wahid in Keppres No. 6/2000; annulment supported by former president Megawati Soekarnoputri in Keppres No 19/2002 by declaring Chinese New Year as national holiday)
• Resolution of the Provisional People's Consultative Assembly no. 32, 1966 (TAP MPRS No. 32/1966) expressly bans the use of Chinese characters in public.
• Presidium Directive No. 240/1967 (Inpres No. 240/1967) which mandates assimilation of "foreigners" and support the previous directive of 127/U/Kep/12/1966 for Indonesian Chinese to adopt Indonesian-sounding names.
• Home Affairs Ministry No. 455.2-360/1988 on Regulation of Temples, which effectively and severely restrict building or repairing Chinese temples.
• Circular of the Director General for Press and Graphics Guidance in the Ministry of Information No.02/SE/Ditjen-PPGK/1988, which further restrict the usage of Chinese language and/or characters.
• Instruction of the Ministry of Home Affairs No. X01/1977 on Implementing Instructions for Population Registration and the confidential instructions No.3.462/1.755.6 of the Jakarta government January 28, 1980 both authorize special codes in national identification cards to indicate ethnic Chinese origin. The code was "A01" prefix.
• Cabinet Presidium Circular SE-06/Pres-Kab/6/1967 on Changing the Term China and Chinese, requires the usage of the term "Cina" (which is considered a derogatory term by many Chinese Indonesians) instead of "Tionghoa" (as ethnic Chinese refer to themselves).

[Kung Pao]

Wow. That's amazing. It's hard to believe how they'd supress it like that.

Still, if those dates are right, it would seem that the legal thing can't explain it. It would explain wihy the Indonesian school whouldo have changed in his absence, but Sin would already be a such and such blackbelt by then, so the Japanese styling would have to predate that. I'm sure the laws didn't come from nowhere. there must have been local pressures before the national ones, you know? So maybe it's a bit of both.

But is he Indonesian, or Chinese, by birth. Not nationality. Ethnicity, I mean.

Does anyone know where his parents were from? I read that article again, it said they were from mainland china. What province, maybe city?

[DPL]

In November 1987, James Halladay the writer of the articlal stated quite clearly that the reason the art adopted Japanese trappings was in order to avoid negative publicity due to intolerance displayed towards Chinese by the Indonszns. There is no mention of illegal practice or laws.

So which is it? Was it outlawed, and so adopted Jaanese styling? Or was it just to "fit in" to avoid negative publicity?

I had never heard the 'outlawed' story until I began reading this forum. When I started with SD it was explained that it was a way to avoid antagonism, and my impression was always that it was more form than anything (i.e. as long as the d*** Chinese don't act too Chinese then it's okay.) That last bit could have been inferred by me, though.

To be completely frank coming from a Japanese style it was initially a bit odd to see CMA folks wearing gis. But it was explained as above and wasn't any kind of big deal at all.

I agree with JP in that it's probably the least important difference between SD and other CMA styles. Some of the more recent threads that have gone over similarities and differences of SD and other styles have been encouraging, rather than constantly going over all the same old cr@p again and again.

Does anyone have access to the original discussions about SD and the original posts where all these claims were made? Unfortunately I can't seem to search the archives back past mid-2000 to see those. They're referred to quite often, but there's no way to see who really said what, when all this started.

[Leto]

I don't know where in China the The family came from. One thing I can gather, is that at some point they must have been quite wealthy. This is based on a story GM The told of one of his great grandfathers in China, who had servants, and also happened to be an expert martial artist and master of pressure point striking. Also, the fact that they could afford to send two sons to a university in the US, (Sin The was originally going to go to school in Germany, but that fell through for some reaon), would indicate wealth.
I might presume that they lived in the southern areas of China, like Fujian, based on the dialect that seems to be used in some of the form names (like "Pai Hao" for white crane). Of course, that could have come from Ie Chang Ming or one of the other teachers.

maybe in Indonesia it was just way easier to get a hold of judogi, rather than some traditional old-style Chinese clothes. Heck, there's a picture of Hung I Hsiang, from Taiwan, wearing a Japanese gi in Robert Smith's "Masters and Methods" book. This tradition of wearing whatever is available probably carried over to Kentucky, too. The same reason they used Japanese style swords for dao, back in the day. There was no intenet back then...Where would you get Chinese style clothes and weapons in Kentucky in the 60's or 70's, or even 80's? Was there a China town in Lexington?

I would like to know more about the real history and origins of the style, too.

[kwaichang]

The traditional broad sword/tao looks more like a katana in shape than the current bs sold today. KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

Back for a quick question:

Anyone know what this style is? We have all these movements in short forms with minor variations. I know they're simple, but it's interesting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5vd-L2TZxo

[The Xia]

Back for a quick question:

Anyone know what this style is? We have all these movements in short forms with minor variations. I know they're simple, but it's interesting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5vd-L2TZxo

Lung Ying. The form is Sup Luk Dong (16 Moves).

[Judge Pen]

I've seen something similar. It's southern dragon.... nice stuff and stuff that you don't find that often.

[NastyHaggis]

For what it's worth, not everyone in this style wears Japanese Gi's. Our branch of schools (Elder Master Mullins in Tennessee) wear Chinese uniforms. No one mistakes us for a Japanese style at all.

[Shaolin Wookie]

The southern styles I've come across all have very similar hand motions to those practiced by SD, in my opinion. Especially in Southern Mantis(but then, I saw more of this firsthand than any other). They're not exactly the same, not at all, but the principles and movements of arms/hands are quite alike. If you threw an SD uniform on many southern stylists them and told them to relax and add more snap (hence the karate-libel SD gets) and be more fluid, it would pretty much be the same. Granted, there are small differences, but I honestly think silat and kuntao (primarily the former) may have had their influence on the way SD was taught pre-America. Certain styles are almost reciprocated word-for-word in SD: like Taizu (especially), Chaquan (Muslim longfist, I think--and Indonesia was heavily Muslim, if I remember correctly--but shortforms and this are so alike I think they're the same), some Southern Mantis, and many 5-animal styles. I had some time to check out this kuntao silat de thouars school in Roswell (I originally wrote them off as strange guys, but went back for "research" purposes to see the links between what I do and what other styles do). There are some notable similarities. If they had a better schedule, I might have stayed there (to cross-train), but I wound up cross-training in capoeira instead (which is loads of fun). Anyways, for those who think SD is kuntao or silat, it's not. It has much the same flavor, but it's quite different. The more I look at SD, I realize how unique it is. Sure, it gets ragged on here. But it has a little bit from many sources. Most of all, it draws from CMA, undoubtedly. Which CMA? Not sure, but probably older Shaolin--not the more "contemporary traditional". And the sparring principles remind me a lot of Bando. I saw a little of this from a Georgia State Student at the kuntao school, and apparently GSU offers Bando clinics on campus with full contact sparring (and Bando guys are seriously hardcore [if there's a knockout, the fight doesn't end, they drag him back to his corner, revive him, and send him back out, so you might see 3 knockouts before the fight's over. Good for killing brain cells, but not much more....hahahaha....) so I'll check those out when I start Grad School this September. They mentioned something about Bando forms....not quite sure what that means. I thought Bando was like Muay Thai, only Burmese. Didn't know there were any forms in either, outside a Wai Khru.

SD seems like the unique product of a melting pot history. Born in china, raised in Indonesia, forced to change and morph due to cultural pressures, transported to america, and personalized by Sin The, perhaps with a little more karate-like intent.

I've come to appreciate that. I think they package and sell it strangely, but hell, I've come to like it for what it is. Longfist--cool art, but not for me---just didn't sit in my stomach very well, except for weight transitioning drills.

BTW, capoeira is the only art I found in my lookabout that surpasses the conditioning rigors of SD. Combining the two--holy crap, man. It's tough.