Striking to the throat, trachea, back of the head ,and spine, as well as using the tip of the elbowOriginally Posted by boshea
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Striking to the throat, trachea, back of the head ,and spine, as well as using the tip of the elbow
Master Of Gai Zao Quan
Posted by: djcaldwell - "Sifu tosses out a saying all the time - don't fear the man that knows 10,000 techniques but fear the man that knows one and does it 10,0000 times."
This is my favorite MA saying. I also agree that whatever combat art one studies, there is no substitute for live training, and serious physical conditioning. This is how we train in Louisville. I know other SD schools that do as well. As to the quality of the posted clips...
I am not familiar enough with mantis outside of SD to make an informed comparison.
The tiger clip was IMO on par with any average student in any MA. Most people who study MA do so as a hobby. Life is too hectic for most of us to devote as much time to training as we'd like. I also feel that it would be tough for any SD player to get a truly unbiased critique from this crowd. There have been exceptions, JP's kwan do and sparring clips for two. I have seen remarkable performances of SD material. I have asked the people who did them to please post themselves, they politely declined. They're indifferent to this entire discussion. On the one hand I see their point, and most of the time I am of a similar mind. Then there are times that I get tired of seeing my art get slammed all the time. I'd post videos of myself, but I am average at best.
"Repugnant is a creature that would squander the ability to lift an eye to heaven, conscious of it's fleeting time here." - Tool
www.bentmonk.com
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Actually you have been misreading all along. What the hell is this crap?Talk about lacking in humility.
Daper Dan Man
I disagree with you there. I'm average at best myslef, but I'm a scrapper and don't mind the contact. As for my form, I can spend hours pointing out the flaws there, but my point in posting my form wasn't to show how good or bad of a performer that I am, but to give an honest representation of the typical SD form (one that has been taught in SD for as long as I've been around and --I'm told--for a fair bit longer) and show that it is unmistakingly Chinese in origin
People can criticize me and my performance, but the form is CMA. Although many argue that it is a more accurate representation of a pu dao form instead of a kwan dao form, it is still CMA in technique. It is not used as one would a naginata for instance.
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So you're working 20 forms 3 times a week and then doing all the the other stuff as well.
Look I'm not speaking from a desk jockeys position...I've trainined I've trained in CMA since I was a teen and I've trained Thai Boxing and even had the opportunity to train with David Ross at his school and with his guys. IT'S DIFFERENT.
Forms are not ever going to make someone an efficient fighter. I love forms, I think they rule and serve their purpose but IT IS NOT to create a fighter. Yeah boxers shadow box and there is a drill that is worked with punches - but its purposes are more a) warm up b) develop muscle memory and c) speed. But you do not and can not develop the "feel" until you hit something with purpose. Then you feel how your body reacts, then you feel how the positioning that may be off in form affects your strikes.
As for accuracy and perhaps I'm misreading again but if the implication is that there is "less accuracy" required for boxing then - you haven't boxed. It's not just wild swinging at someones head. There are targets and points just as in any other fighting - now make it Thai and you have to worry about a world more than just those hands.
Look I love TCMA and for years I was under the same illusion as many in which I was the KF advocate and dare you say that our skill is not deadly. Both my Sifu's had told me that it's not really like that and I STILL DIDN'T BELIEVE IT. Until I went to Hong Kong with my Sifu heard the same thing he Sifu had been telling me for two years and the light went off in my head.
Look KF without a doubt is Kick arse and by the rest of the MA world, totally underated right now and it's not because it's not efficient. It's because we have groups of people who boast of it's deadliness but never show it. Who speak of the effectiveness of their training and how they can do anything...until they get in the ring and can't adapt.
As far as I'm concerned - a good martial artist, a good fighter, needs to evolve, grow and learn from their mistakes. If you can't compete because your techniques are too strong or illegal and you as a fighter can't adapt them to do it then you have no "Kung Fu" you're in essense a monkey duplicating the same thing he /she has been taught.
Learn, grow and make yourself better.
"To know you don't know is best.
Not to know you don't know is a flaw.
Therefore, the Sage's not being flawed
Stems from his recognizing a flaw as a flaw.
Therefore, he is flawless."
"Bo-shay"
Forgive me if I'm missing something, but isn't that what I just posted?
What I was asking was specifically about the 40 or 50 pressure points that kwaichang said are banned by the UFC. Kungfujunky responded and said that between eye gouges and groin attacks there are at least 40 or 50 pressure points. I think that's splitting hairs a bit, but it looks like just a matter of using different terms.
Thanks for clarifying guys.
-brian
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Well I was addressing a question posed to me by KC. As for humility, where is it in the MA handbook that one needs to be humble to be a martial artist. That again is a KF Fantasy of the "moral" code that we must abide by in order to truly succeed at our art.
It's neither required nor is one held back because he's not such a nice person. Does the name Bok Mei mean anything to you?
Not to mention that if I lacked humility I certainly would not have posted that I've lost fights - I would present myself as the ultimate fighter - but alas - I'm not - would like to be - but - no actually I'm good the way I am.
Last edited by djcaldwell; 06-07-2007 at 02:32 PM. Reason: had more to say
"To know you don't know is best.
Not to know you don't know is a flaw.
Therefore, the Sage's not being flawed
Stems from his recognizing a flaw as a flaw.
Therefore, he is flawless."
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Actually,what I was saying that in these areas are the pressure points in which he was talking about . Actually there are more than that.
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Boxing does not teach to take a knuckle and hit a point and if it doesnt teach it and you dont do it it anit going to happen for you. I have boxed and there is accuracy see De Lahoya when he got knocked out TKO by a strike to Liver 13. That is an exception though. Most KO 's are due to trauma repetive to the brain stem via the chin. KC
A Fool is Born every Day !
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Yes , forms will make you a better fighter if you know how to use them properly. They are more than just shadow boxing or just a dance . You have to know how to use them or they are just what you think they are ....useless for fighting. Do you understand how forms are used in their entirety ??Each piece needs to be brokendown for practical appilication and all the techniques can be used at the proper place and time ...if not ....it is just a dance.
A big reason why no one can prove it's effectiveness in the ring is because it is for martial purposes ......you know WAR!!?!? On the battlfield it is kill or be killed. All the rules of MMA prohibit the use of certain techniques that are the mainstay of CMA ........ which are going in for the kill .
It is not for sport . Yeah you can train a CMArtist to fight in the ring but that means that he does justs what everyone else is doing punching ,kicking , and grappling. Just the basics.
What makes CMA more profound is the depth of psychology , philosophy and physiology that is delved into. It is more than what MMA is about.
I know that there are plenty of guys in MMA that practice TMA but have to strip it down to basics for sport. This relys on a certain state of mind ,spirit and body than a TMArtist or a real warrior would use.
It is very difficult to learn how to follow within a specific set of rules when normally anything goes. So any MMA guy who has never trained in TMA has an advantage over someone who does not and just learns MMA right from the beginning in a sport setting. you put a MMA guy in the setting of a real warrior or someone who does not have to follow rules but they do....they get their asses handed to them..
CMA and TMA can and do get into the ring and win and lose just like anyone else . But most guys that practice TMA or CMA do not focus on the ancient teaching while competing in sport because that is not what the sport is about . It is about money and fame ...which is not what CMA and TMA are about. It is what sport and business are all about
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Okay if you believe that forms will make you a better fighter then it is not me who does not understand their use and I will not try and convince you otherwise. But question, what would happen if heaven forbid you just practiced the applications? AH...the world might implode. I know many teachers that only teach form after application to avoid the illusion that you have falledn under.
You are joking right? Basically if you can't apply what you have learned in 'ANY' setting then you do not have a grasp on what it is you do. The whole it's for battlefield fighitng is nothing more than an excuse for those who are unable to adapt. David Ross I feel your pain.A big reason why no one can prove it's effectiveness in the ring is because it is for martial purposes ......you know WAR!!?!? On the battlfield it is kill or be killed. All the rules of MMA prohibit the use of certain techniques that are the mainstay of CMA ........ which are going in for the kill .
If your training is not all encompassing in that you can't do those things above that you mentioned then you're in for a rude awakening should you ever be confronted by someone who can. Even "basic" grappling fundamentals can make the world of difference - but of course with your deadly skills the fight would never make it to the ground.It is not for sport . Yeah you can train a CMArtist to fight in the ring but that means that he does justs what everyone else is doing punching ,kicking , and grappling. Just the basics.
You are no fighter - because that comment is just foolish. Have you ever stood eye to eye with someone - tell me that your psychology and philosophy are going to win the fight for you if you have never done it before. You save all your killing skills for when you need it - how do you know you can ever use them. YOU DON'T and since we don't embark on battles for our lives on a daily basis anylonger you and others are able to live in the fantasy that if you ever have to you will be able to defeat any opponent.What makes CMA more profound is the depth of psychology , philosophy and physiology that is delved into. It is more than what MMA is about.
Say that to Matt Hughes or Matt Serra or Rich Franklin and see how they feel about it. What do you define as a warrior? I know people who have never taken MA a day in their lives that have kicked the crap out of people who studied for years and years dilligently - he was a warrior. I would like to know what you picture a warrior to be - my family is all marines and veterans of the wars you speak of - they are warriors - so I'm really intersted in your response.It is very difficult to learn how to follow within a specific set of rules when normally anything goes. So any MMA guy who has never trained in TMA has an advantage over someone who does not and just learns MMA right from the beginning in a sport setting. you put a MMA guy in the setting of a real warrior or someone who does not have to follow rules but they do....they get their asses handed to them..
Last edited by djcaldwell; 06-07-2007 at 03:28 PM.
"To know you don't know is best.
Not to know you don't know is a flaw.
Therefore, the Sage's not being flawed
Stems from his recognizing a flaw as a flaw.
Therefore, he is flawless."
"Bo-shay"
It just looked funny because everything you listed in that post was listed right above it in the text that you quoted.
This is your entire post, excluding what you quoted:
Which followed this quoted text posted by me, and which contained everything that you said above:
I'm not calling you on the accuracy of your statement (or on your martial skill.) I don't doubt that there are many pressure points on the human body, and many more than were listed above. That list was a subset of the fouls listed on the UFC web site, since that is what was being discussed (i.e. strikes that are explicitly banned in the UFC rules). What confused me was that what you said and what you say you meant differ, in my opinion. No offense intended, just trying to learn and understand.
Thanks for the responses. This is an interesting thread.
Regards,
-brian
Registered User
One cannot compare apples to oranges although they are both fruit.TMA/CMA are thousands of years old the forms are a representation of the techniques used in real combat. If one cant apply the techniques in training the will not be efficiently used in a fight. MMA is not a fight it is a sport and although the guys in it can perform their art well that does not mean they can fight. While I am sure some can that does not mean the TMA cant. I feel the level of conditioning the MMA fighter is at assists him/her in their sport and would give the illusion that they can fight. On the other hand the TMA is usually not as well cond and employs a different training strategy for their techniques. To watch a man doing forms and assume he can fight just because his/her form is good is stupid. However there is something raw about the TMA that can fight and do forms. I believe therefor that a TMA that applies the proper training principles in his training can win against a MMA fighter. due to the fact that a MA has proven war techniques and strategy at his disposal and it is not a sport if performed correctly. KC
A Fool is Born every Day !
"Bo-shay"
While this is theoretically true, I think where the MMA guys are coming from is that typical MMA training (in which sparring is an integral part, and frequently competition as well) gets pretty close to real fighting, where typical TMA training does not tend to emphasize that aspect of it. I'm not including forms competition in this. I mean fighting in competition. And it's not universal, just a tendency that many people have observed. That is not to say that TMAs aren't effective, or that a TMA practitioner can't become as effective a fighter or more so. You mention that conditioning is important, but being able to use your techniques under the pressure of a real confrontation is just as important.
It is really a numbers game. Take a look at the number of people who practice MMA, vs. the number of people who practice a TMA. I ask myself, percentage-wise which side is more slanted towards being prepared for a real fight? I think it's probably on the MMA side, mainly because what they focus on in their regular training involves a realistic confrontations.
You can have the best technique in the world, but if you have never actually practiced using it in a real confrontation where both people (or more) are really trying to defeat the other(s), it's impossible to know what it will feel like when the time comes to use that technique. I agree that many TMAs (Northern Shaolin being the only one that I have any experience with) have very effective techniques. The Shaolin monks fought off warlords, which speaks to the effectiveness of their techniques. Warlords! How many of us TMA practitioners have ever done that? So if you want to talk about comparing apples and oranges...
So, you'd think that I was one of those MMA guys the way I talk! No, but I realize that after all the years I've put into training TMA, I don't think I'm prepared for a realistic fight (yet.) So I am addressing that.
Just my opinion. Peace everybody!
-brian
Registered User
MMA ring fighting is not a fight in a fight a beer mug cracks your skull and a chair over the head and a table leg in the ear. I dont see that in a MMA fight. But I guess if you want to throw a punch and roll around on a nice soft mat and try to hurt some one with those tech thats ok . But when you roll on broken glass or concrete or sticks it changes things and while most TMA dont do the bag work or the mit work you can if you want but the MMA guys and the hybrid MA guys usually dont train the other way cause they make their money that way and if they get hurt they get poor. I think if you were to put a TMA that has trained realistically and with effort and a MMA in a bar fight the TMA would fare better. If it is a 1x1 confront the MMA might do better but that can depend on environment and how many friends the opponent has. KC
A Fool is Born every Day !
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