Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[cjurakpt]

ok, now that the bruhaha has ensued, I guess I should clarify a few things

first off, I am well aware that no one specifically said SD was too deadly for UFC - there's a little known literary device known as sarcasm, perhaps some of you have heard of it?

second, I think that some people are missing the point about the comment I bolded out re: the 40 to 50 "illegal" points that would be exposed when someone does a shoot: first, when I think of a shoot, i think of a good shoot - not one where you bend forward at the waist and rush in head first; this is cr@p; a good shoot is where you drop your center and maintain your postural integrety as you come in, usually after some sort of fake, whatever; so, what that means is that, a couple of things: first, you are not exposing the back of your head, neck or upper torso (which obviates the whole notion of elbowing the back of the head as a shoot defense); you are coming in with hands up, being cautious to evade anything coming your way - so the degree of exposure, in a good shoot, is still there, but it's calculated risk and not the same as someone barreling in on you pell mell; now, this may be what you all had in mind as well - I don't know for sure, just clarifying; point is, the degree of exposure in a good shoot is not as much as in a poorly executed one

second, I'm surprised that no one picked up on the obvious contradiction of the statement about 40-50 points being exposed during a shoot which are all allegedly illegal: so here's the thing - considering just the head and shoulders, if you consider the distribution of 20 points per side of the body, well, there's no place left to hit that WOULDN'T have at least one of those points! now, far be it from me to ask someone to name and describe those points specifically, but it would be impossible NOT to hit someone in at least one of them under the described scenario;

just sayin'...

[djcaldwell]

MMA ring fighting is not a fight in a fight a beer mug cracks your skull and a chair over the head and a table leg in the ear. I dont see that in a MMA fight. But I guess if you want to throw a punch and roll around on a nice soft mat and try to hurt some one with those tech thats ok . But when you roll on broken glass or concrete or sticks it changes things and while most TMA dont do the bag work or the mit work you can if you want but the MMA guys and the hybrid MA guys usually dont train the other way cause they make their money that way and if they get hurt they get poor. I think if you were to put a TMA that has trained realistically and with effort and a MMA in a bar fight the TMA would fare better. If it is a 1x1 confront the MMA might do better but that can depend on environment and how many friends the opponent has. KC

Don't know what bars you hang out in but I'll stay away from there! I've been in bars and clubs since I was 16 years old and I've only seen one person get hit with a bottle and that's cause he was an idiot. I saw one person get cut and one person get completely stomped. All the rest and I'm talking I've seen a huge 10 on 5 brawl and yeah they go to the ground but not the other things you noted are rare occassions.

Alas I know that there is no way I'm going to shed any light on this subject for you as you will believe what you will. I've lived it and it's a harsh reality actually makes you bitter for a little while but when the reality of the situation sets in you realize that a) Kung Fu is great BUT our training and methods need some modification.

If you're (and I mean that in the general sense) not fighting different people, different styles and working outside the mindset that we have trapped ourselves in as TCMA practitioners then the art will be doomed. KF needs to grow and expand.

Good luck in your training. Just a side note when the day comes that you (again general) are faced with the reality through being tested - just try not to blame the KF itself as I have seen so many others do. Look back on the experience, see where improvement is needed what did and didn't work and build on it. That's the only way KF will continue to grow and compete in everysense in the MA world that is rapidly changing.

[boshea]

MMA ring fighting is not a fight in a fight a beer mug cracks your skull and a chair over the head and a table leg in the ear. I dont see that in a MMA fight. But I guess if you want to throw a punch and roll around on a nice soft mat and try to hurt some one with those tech thats ok . But when you roll on broken glass or concrete or sticks it changes things and while most TMA dont do the bag work or the mit work you can if you want but the MMA guys and the hybrid MA guys usually dont train the other way cause they make their money that way and if they get hurt they get poor. I think if you were to put a TMA that has trained realistically and with effort and a MMA in a bar fight the TMA would fare better. If it is a 1x1 confront the MMA might do better but that can depend on environment and how many friends the opponent has. KC

But that is what I am saying. We are in agreement about what a TMA practitioner can become. What I am saying is that this is not often born out in reality. You say that MMA guys don't train in bar fight situations where they risk being hit by beer mugs or having to fight on hard floors with broken glass. But neither do TMA guys (at least none that I know train that way.) Let's be balanced here.

What does happen is this: MMA fighters (for the most part) prepare themselves for a confrontation. TMA practitioners (for the most part) practice forms. There are exceptions on both sides. I am just stating why I think the perception is such that MMA fighters are more prepared for real-world fighting than most TMA practitioners. It doesn't matter how good your techniques are if you don't pit them against someone else's. The timing is different and the consequences of failure are higher.

This is not a matter of "MMA is better than TMA" or vice versa. This is a matter of the way that we TMA practitioners train. We can become more effective if we start training in competitive and "realistic" situations like the MMA guys do (even if our training lacks beer mugs and broken glass). It's the psychological effect that a confrontation has (and how prepared you are for it) that makes the difference, in my experience. In the times that I have gotten into confrontations that could have turned ugly (fortunately I have always been able to end them diplomatically), I might have been able to defeat the other guy with the techniques that I have learned, even though he may have been bigger than me (I was almost in such a situation recently, but those who know me know that as sure as I am given to long parenthetical statements in my posts, I am not given to violence), the one thing that consistently robbs me of my confidence has been not knowing how well my techniques will work in a real fight situation. Not being sure that I can land the strike while the other guy is fighting back. Just a moment of hesitation due to this lack of confidence might have made the difference between me being able to defend myself, or me getting stomped.

Personally I want to be prepared, and that means admitting where my training has had its shortcomings, and eliminating them.

[BentMonk]

I have seen SD used in the ring. The SD guy won by TKO. I too hate the "TCMA techniques are too deadly for the ring" cop out. If you train for the ring, you'll be able to use your techniques in the ring. I think it's obvious that no sport combat match is going to bear any resemblance to a real fight. Real fights are brief, and ugly. IMO if you put your skills to the test in the ring a few times, you will have a better understanding of what might work for you in a fight. I have no desire to be in a real fight. They're messy and have lots of consequences. Sport combat is like sparring on steroids. I also think it's good to find out how you'll really react when you take a solid hit to the dome. MMA fighters and boxers have a serious advantage over anyone in any art that doesn't train live with contact. As Ali said, "Every body's got a plan 'til they get hit." I can know 1000 deadly techniques, but if it only takes a hay maker from Bubba to drop me, what's the point? You will fight the way you train. Peace

[NastyHaggis]

this is the thread that never ends
it just goes on and on my friends
some people started posting here not knowing what it was
and they'll continue posting here forever just because...
(repeat from beginning)

1,000 samolians to the geek that knows where this comes from...

Barney. Now pay up sucka! LOL!

[cjurakpt]

MMA ring fighting is not a fight in a fight a beer mug cracks your skull and a chair over the head and a table leg in the ear.

so, if you are talking about context specific training, i take it that you mimic that sort of environment when you drill your techniques (you know, dark, crowded, loud, smokey, rowdy patrons, slippery floors, testosterone charged 20somethings...); if not, then you are equally at the same disadvantage

I dont see that in a MMA fight. But I guess if you want to throw a punch and roll around on a nice soft mat and try to hurt some one with those tech thats ok .

that's the way they actually are selling it these days, believe it or not "MMA - it's all about your comfort level."

But when you roll on broken glass or concrete or sticks it changes things and while most TMA dont do the bag work or the mit work you can if you want but the MMA guys and the hybrid MA guys usually dont train the other way cause they make their money that way and if they get hurt they get poor. I think if you were to put a TMA that has trained realistically and with effort and a MMA in a bar fight the TMA would fare better.

what, again, does training "realistically" mean? unless you are training in the actual context, then you are not training "realistically" so to speak; in MMA, there is one major components of that "realistic" aspect present all the time, training techniques always in context (resistance) versus abstractly (forms); and most TMA guys not only don't do the contact work, they don't do the on context realistic stuff you are talking about either

If it is a 1x1 confront the MMA might do better but that can depend on environment and how many friends the opponent has. KC

look, you gotta stay consistent with your argument: what you are trying to cover for is the fact that on a BASIC level, MMA training is more realistic then pretty much all TCMA at this point, in the sense that it emphasizes immediate application of learned techniques in a resisted environment, and that it requires a greater level of physical conditioning as well; your argument seeks to downplay that by saying that this will do you no good or less good in a "real" fight situation; as for friends and whatnot - this is a HIGHLY unpredictable variable, which in the right combination will render ALL martial arts training useless

so here's the question:
(and spare me the battle field analogy - TCMA has NOTING to do with battlefield combat - mainly because battlefield combat was ALWAYS done with weapons, while wearing protective gear - really sounds more like Dog Brothers!):

what is it SPECIFICALLY about TCMA that better prepares you for a "real" fight than training MMA style? is it the techniques? how you train? what? what is this oft alluded to but never specified secret decoder ring noumenna? ("ding an sich" for you Kantians out there);

the world is dying to know...

[cjurakpt]

Barney. Now pay up sucka! LOL!

eh! (sound of wrong answer buzzer a la wrong Family Feud)

thank you for playing!

to be fair though, you are close, in the right genre - it is a kiddie show, but it's pre-Barney (think sock puppet...)

[tattooedmonk]

Okay if you believe that forms will make you a better fighter then it is not me who does not understand their use and I will not try and convince you otherwise. But question, what would happen if heaven forbid you just practiced the applications? AH...the world might implode. I know many teachers that only teach form after application to avoid the illusion that you have falledn under.



You are joking right? Basically if you can't apply what you have learned in 'ANY' setting then you do not have a grasp on what it is you do. The whole it's for battlefield fighitng is nothing more than an excuse for those who are unable to adapt. David Ross I feel your pain.



If your training is not all encompassing in that you can't do those things above that you mentioned then you're in for a rude awakening should you ever be confronted by someone who can. Even "basic" grappling fundamentals can make the world of difference - but of course with your deadly skills the fight would never make it to the ground.



You are no fighter - because that comment is just foolish. Have you ever stood eye to eye with someone - tell me that your psychology and philosophy are going to win the fight for you if you have never done it before. You save all your killing skills for when you need it - how do you know you can ever use them. YOU DON'T and since we don't embark on battles for our lives on a daily basis anylonger you and others are able to live in the fantasy that if you ever have to you will be able to defeat any opponent.




Say that to Matt Hughes or Matt Serra or Rich Franklin and see how they feel about it. What do you define as a warrior? I know people who have never taken MA a day in their lives that have kicked the crap out of people who studied for years and years dilligently - he was a warrior. I would like to know what you picture a warrior to be - my family is all marines and veterans of the wars you speak of - they are warriors - so I'm really intersted in your response.

!What illussion have I fallen under??. You obviously do not know how to utilize forms properly then. what part of what I said you not understand ?? I do not think just doing forms for forms sake will make you a better fighter . Read what I wrote again. You missed somethings.

What ?? Martial arts is not for sport . It is for warfare Period . I did not say you could not adapt . It will just take longer to unlearn what you have learned.If you have a specific mind set whether it is going from doing for warfare to sport or from fitness to warfare or any other combination you can think of . You have to train with the intent that it is just for sport to be a fighter in the ring.

Trust me I can use everything I have ever learned in a fight.

I teach and practice for real world applications . We practice with a great deal of gear and lots of times people need some type of medical assistance afterwards . .

Mind you these are martial artist that do it for just that and it is any thing goes just short of maiming someone or killing them. The people that do it for social and fitness reasons are a different story.

Of course unless you use it for fighting it is not going to work in a fight but most fights are psychological and philosophical . The physical aspect is only 1/3rd of the fight. Shows how much you really know.

As for those guy they are ring warriors and in many circumstance can and would be able to fight in a real fight and prevail but they are just ring warriors.

As for military I come from a military backround. Two different arenas, fighting for your life and fighting for money and fame ....like I said two completly different things.

what is up with your reading and comprehension skils man?? why do you miss read and take everything out of the context in which it is presented??

[tattooedmonk]

It just looked funny because everything you listed in that post was listed right above it in the text that you quoted.

This is your entire post, excluding what you quoted:



Which followed this quoted text posted by me, and which contained everything that you said above:



I'm not calling you on the accuracy of your statement (or on your martial skill.) I don't doubt that there are many pressure points on the human body, and many more than were listed above. That list was a subset of the fouls listed on the UFC web site, since that is what was being discussed (i.e. strikes that are explicitly banned in the UFC rules). What confused me was that what you said and what you say you meant differ, in my opinion. No offense intended, just trying to learn and understand.

Thanks for the responses. This is an interesting thread.

Regards,
-brian

post 5097.......

[kwaichang]

You guys must be using your own half hearted traditional training and are trying to project your own experiences on others. I come from a varied back ground in MA but have found the MMA fighters to have poor kicks "for the most part" and mediocre hands at best , there are exceptions "NOW". Few win with a KO it is ground work that makes them win. That is not combat. Most fights end up on the ground well where I come from if that happens and from my experience if i take a guy to the ground I better break something and get up within 3-5 seconds or I will be clubbed by the guys buddy. This is my mental state when I train, I do forms with the mentality, unless I am nursing an injury, that I am in a realistic situation. The techniques have been passed down for a reason the were used in real situations therefore there is truth in them. So good luck and know that if you meet a truly traditional MA he does Iron Shirt , Aerobic repetition of technique chin Na and runs and fights under varied cond. Snow ice rain grass wood concrete etc etc. KC

[Shaolin Wookie]

In that clip, the clearest similarity to a form I've seen in SD is Tiger/Crane.

Stop being lazy, post some more links... and come to a Norcross Wednesday Brown Belt class already.

Love to...but my schedule leaves me in certain parts of town on certain days, and that's right out.

[Shaolin Wookie]

No dude... trust me.

The honest simularites shared by CLF & SD is that both use hands to hit, feet to kick. That's about as far as that dance goes.

I know you have knowledge of both. I wasn't implying one is like the other any more than in the patterns of the forms. And how the forms move between techniques. And somtimes the tempo. Nothing else. As I said, the techniques and strikes are waaaay different.

[tattooedmonk]

You guys must be using your own half hearted traditional training and are trying to project your own experiences on others. I come from a varied back ground in MA but have found the MMA fighters to have poor kicks "for the most part" and mediocre hands at best , there are exceptions "NOW". Few win with a KO it is ground work that makes them win. That is not combat. Most fights end up on the ground well where I come from if that happens and from my experience if i take a guy to the ground I better break something and get up within 3-5 seconds or I will be clubbed by the guys buddy. This is my mental state when I train, I do forms with the mentality, unless I am nursing an injury, that I am in a realistic situation. The techniques have been passed down for a reason the were used in real situations therefore there is truth in them. So good luck and know that if you meet a truly traditional MA he does Iron Shirt , Aerobic repetition of technique chin Na and runs and fights under varied cond. Snow ice rain grass wood concrete etc etc. KC

I believe we are on the same page my brother.

[Knifefighter]

LOL @ all you guys who think MMA is only about training for the ring with what are admittedly becoming more and more pansy-a$$ rules.

There is a whole contingent of MMA based fighters who are training specifically for the street with no rules... and to mess someone up badly.

You'd be surprised at the stuff they train... all the stuff you guys are talking about plus more.

You think MMA fighters can't fight in a club? There are guys who train specifically for this. Imagine getting into it with someone in a club and thinking you are about ready to have a confrontation with him, when before you have a chance to do anything, his buddy throws on a RNC on you and they break your arms or your knees while you are sleeping.

You may be training in ancient battlefield techniques, but there are MMA guys out there training for the realities of today's urban environment.

And this isn't even considering the really bad guys that are learning MMA and applying to their predator mentalities. You think grappling doesn't work for the street? Wait till you get taken down by one of these guys, mounted and have a blade shoved into your eye.

You guys are truly clueless about what's happening in the MMA scene.

[Shaolin Wookie]

After studying SD for over 15 years, studying CLF under Doc Fei Wong for the last 6 months, as well as many other reputable CMA masters I have come to the conclusion that yes SD is real Shaolin , although it has been modified and adapted for modern day usage. I admit that it has less of a "Chinese" feel to it than other syles I have done, but I would say that a few of the reasons for this are because of the large body of material that is taught and the amount of time that you have to learn it in , as well as the Indonesia importation factor.

Okay, I'm reading this hash of furious posts you've made several pages ago. You should stop right here, because this is probably the best thing you've said. You get so angry and furious and outraged that people are calling your Shaolin fake, or not CLF. Well...it's not CLF........duh.......

I agree with this post 100%, and would only add that the transition to America had a huge influence, as well.