Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[djcaldwell]

!What illussion have I fallen under??. You obviously do not know how to utilize forms properly then. what part of what I said you not understand ?? I do not think just doing forms for forms sake will make you a better fighter . Read what I wrote again. You missed somethings.

yadda....yadda...yadda....

What ?? Martial arts is not for sport . It is for warfare

And the last time you went out fighting hand to hand for your life recently was...

Period . I did not say you could not adapt . It will just take longer to unlearn what you have learned.If you have a specific mind set whether it is going from doing for warfare to sport or from fitness to warfare or any other combination you can think of . You have to train with the intent that it is just for sport to be a fighter in the ring.

All due respect this whole statment is just stupid.

I teach and practice for real world applications . We practice with a great deal of gear and lots of times people need some type of medical assistance afterwards . .

Now your FOS - do you retain a lot of students that way. I've taught privately and in the school - privately no pads for anyone and no one, aside from a jammed finger or some serious bruising has ever had to seek emedial assistance afterwards. So either you guys are supermen or complete hacks.

Of course unless you use it for fighting it is not going to work in a fight but most fights are psychological and philosophical . The physical aspect is only 1/3rd of the fight. Shows how much you really know.

How many times have you stood toe to toe in the ring? How many times have you had to fight "for real" - oh that's right you're too deadly - I've had more fights by the time I was out of elemetary school than you've probably had in your life so spare me the psychological crap. Physical aspect is only 1/3 tell that to a drunk in a bar. There is an entirely logical discussion to be had with regard to intent and the psyche as concerns fighting - but I'm not wasting it on you.

As for those guy they are ring warriors and in many circumstance can and would be able to fight in a real fight and prevail but they are just ring warriors.

YOU ARE CONTRADICTING YOURSELF...Either they can or they can't they're sport or they're warriors...now they are ring warriors and can and would be ablet to fight in a real fight - but they are still ring warriors to a true warrior like yourself.

So again, how many times have you stood in the ring? I'm sure you've stared down many fights - or did they just get tired of you talking about what your going to do to them if you weren't so lethal.

As for military I come from a military backround. Two different arenas, fighting for your life and fighting for money and fame ....like I said two completly different things.

Now you have military experience too...

So between your profile disappearing - and stating so you became a 15 year SD practitioner who still hasn't acquired any CLF knowledge...Oh wait...you have studied with DFW for 6 months so you know all about CLF now. Your understanding and ability to seperate the applications from forms and understanding of CMA is too much for me. 15 1/2 years (I'll add the 6months for ya) on top of your now Military Background...I shy in comparison and to find out that on top of it all you're teaching people this greatness (when they are not in the hospital of course) is just to much for me.

I'll concede to your greatness and try to apply your wisdom to my own pathetic training. Thank you.

[tattooedmonk]

LOL @ all you guys who think MMA is only about training for the ring.

There is a whole contingent of MMA based fighters who are training specifically for the street with no rules... and to mess someone up badly.

You'd be surprised at the stuff they train... all the stuff you guys are talking about plus more.

You think MMA fighters can't fight in a club. There are guys who train specifically for this. Imagine getting into it with someone in a club and thinking you are about ready to have a confrontation with him, when before you have a chance to do anything, his buddy throws on a RNC on you and they break your arms or your knees while you are sleeping.

You may be training in ancient battlefield techniques, but there are MMA guys out there training for the realities of today's urban environment.

And this isn't even considering the really bad guys that are learning MMA and applying to their predator mentalities. You think grappling doesn't work for the street? Wait till you get taken down one of these guys, mounted and have a blade shoved into your eye.

You guys are truly clueless about what's happening in the MMA scene.

we were just talking about guys who do mixed martial arts for the ring. I agree there are guys who train for urban warfare and bar fights who do MMA but these numbers are few. I train with this mentality....and as far as I am concernd Shaolin is a mixed martial art. Look at the history and you will see this is correct. grppling works on the street for a short period of time m. Most people use this as a fall back because they can not stand and fight.....but no one is going to come along and say uncle and no ref is goiing to stop the fight. and you do not have the same limitations in areal fight that you do in the ring. Most MMa schools now just practice for sport and fitness and for their egos..... I train for all that tooo but I also train to defend my life and the ones I love.

[Shaolin Wookie]

As I'm sure many will agree - the "secret" is that there is not real secret. Anyone who tells you they are going to teach you "secrets" is nonsense.

Every CMA school I've ever visited is thereby nonsense. Every CMA school I've seen, from Wing Chun, to Hung Gar, to Hop Gar, to Shaolin Chuan (northern longfist school)....they all had secret styles. It's a part of the marketing.....hahahaha.....why does anyone think it's a big deal?

[cjurakpt]

LOL @ all you guys who think MMA is only about training for the ring with what are admittedly becoming more and more pansy-a$$ rules.

There is a whole contingent of MMA based fighters who are training specifically for the street with no rules... and to mess someone up badly.

You'd be surprised at the stuff they train... all the stuff you guys are talking about plus more.

You think MMA fighters can't fight in a club. There are guys who train specifically for this. Imagine getting into it with someone in a club and thinking you are about ready to have a confrontation with him, when before you have a chance to do anything, his buddy throws on a RNC on you and they break your arms or your knees while you are sleeping.

You may be training in ancient battlefield techniques, but there are MMA guys out there training for the realities of today's urban environment.

And this isn't even considering the really bad guys that are learning MMA and applying to their predator mentalities. You think grappling doesn't work for the street? Wait till you get taken down by one of these guys, mounted and have a blade shoved into your eye.

You guys are truly clueless about what's happening in the MMA scene.

welcome to the real world...sounds a lot like what the TCMA purists are touting as the basis for what they do - except that was long ago and far away...

[Knifefighter]

welcome to the real world...sounds a lot like what the TCMA purists are touting as the basis for what they do - except that was long ago and far away...

Yeah, and the MMA "street" guys are using modern training methods instead of old, out-dated ones like forms.

[djcaldwell]

Every CMA school I've ever visited is thereby nonsense. Every CMA school I've seen, from Wing Chun, to Hung Gar, to Hop Gar, to Shaolin Chuan (northern longfist school)....they all had secret styles. It's a part of the marketing.....hahahaha.....why does anyone think it's a big deal?

Then I consider myself very fortunate to have only been taught by people like my Sifu who flat out said there are not secrets - no special things to learn - just you're not ready for that yet.

And of course told me what you're saying now that it's basically what they tell students to keep them interested. You can't leave you haven't learned the secret handshake yet!!

[Judge Pen]

While this is theoretically true, I think where the MMA guys are coming from is that typical MMA training (in which sparring is an integral part, and frequently competition as well) gets pretty close to real fighting, where typical TMA training does not tend to emphasize that aspect of it. I'm not including forms competition in this. I mean fighting in competition. And it's not universal, just a tendency that many people have observed. That is not to say that TMAs aren't effective, or that a TMA practitioner can't become as effective a fighter or more so. You mention that conditioning is important, but being able to use your techniques under the pressure of a real confrontation is just as important.

It is really a numbers game. Take a look at the number of people who practice MMA, vs. the number of people who practice a TMA. I ask myself, percentage-wise which side is more slanted towards being prepared for a real fight? I think it's probably on the MMA side, mainly because what they focus on in their regular training involves a realistic confrontations.

You can have the best technique in the world, but if you have never actually practiced using it in a real confrontation where both people (or more) are really trying to defeat the other(s), it's impossible to know what it will feel like when the time comes to use that technique. I agree that many TMAs (Northern Shaolin being the only one that I have any experience with) have very effective techniques. The Shaolin monks fought off warlords, which speaks to the effectiveness of their techniques. Warlords! How many of us TMA practitioners have ever done that? So if you want to talk about comparing apples and oranges...

So, you'd think that I was one of those MMA guys the way I talk! No, but I realize that after all the years I've put into training TMA, I don't think I'm prepared for a realistic fight (yet.) So I am addressing that.

Just my opinion. Peace everybody!
-brian

I am seeing both sides of this argument and what you say is very true. The trouble with TMA is that there in many schools, there is a lack of realistic sparring, or, to take KC's point to heart, a lack of more realsitic training. At the same time, the unexpected and the unfair are integral parts of any "real" encounter and that is very difficult to simulate in a school or in a ring. But the better you are at keeping your head and your cool in a competitive environment can only serve you well in an unrestricted encounter.

[djcaldwell]

Yeah, and the MMA "street" guys are using modern training methods instead of old, out-dated ones like forms.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOO... Did you just say that forms training won't give me what I need to beat these guys. You must not understand how to use them either.

[djcaldwell]

we were just talking about guys who do mixed martial arts for the ring. I agree there are guys who train for urban warfare and bar fights who do MMA but these numbers are few. I train with this mentality....and as far as I am concernd Shaolin is a mixed martial art. Look at the history and you will see this is correct. grppling works on the street for a short period of time m. Most people use this as a fall back because they can not stand and fight.....but no one is going to come along and say uncle and no ref is goiing to stop the fight. and you do not have the same limitations in areal fight that you do in the ring. Most MMa schools now just practice for sport and fitness and for their egos..... I train for all that tooo but I also train to defend my life and the ones I love.

All I can say is AHHHHRRRGGG!!!

[tattooedmonk]

[QUOTE=djcaldwell;768712][QUOTE=tattooedmonk;768696]!What illussion have I fallen under??. You obviously do not know how to utilize forms properly then. what part of what I said you not understand ?? I do not think just doing forms for forms sake will make you a better fighter . Read what I wrote again. You missed somethings.

And the last time you went out fighting hand to hand for your life recently was...



All due respect this whole statment is just stupid.




Now your FOS - do you retain a lot of students that way. I've taught privately and in the school - privately no pads for anyone and no one, aside from a jammed finger or some serious bruising has ever had to seek emedial assistance afterwards. So either you guys are supermen or complete hacks.




How many times have you stood toe to toe in the ring? How many times have you had to fight "for real" - oh that's right you're too deadly - I've had more fights by the time I was out of elemetary school than you've probably had in your life so spare me the psychological crap. Physical aspect is only 1/3 tell that to a drunk in a bar. There is an entirely logical discussion to be had with regard to intent and the psyche as concerns fighting - but I'm not wasting it on you.



YOU ARE CONTRADICTING YOURSELF...Either they can or they can't they're sport or they're warriors...now they are ring warriors and can and would be ablet to fight in a real fight - but they are still ring warriors to a true warrior like yourself.

So again, how many times have you stood in the ring? I'm sure you've stared down many fights - or did they just get tired of you talking about what your going to do to them if you weren't so lethal.



Now you have military experience too...

So between your profile disappearing - and stating so you became a 15 year SD practitioner who still hasn't acquired any CLF knowledge...Oh wait...you have studied with DFW for 6 months so you know all about CLF now. Your understanding and ability to seperate the applications from forms and understanding of CMA is too much for me. 15 1/2 years (I'll add the 6months for ya) on top of your now Military Background...I shy in comparison and to find out that on top of it all you're teaching people this greatness (when they are not in the hospital of course) is just to much for me.

I'll concede to your greatness and try to apply your wisdome to my own pathetic training. Thank you.

I train with guys who are in the military now who practice the art that I learned and have taught them ( shaolin) and we do go at it until ........?

Like I wrote ( which you seem to always distort and misread) that people who do it for fitness and socialablity is something different. I KEEP THAT SEPERATE.

Actually I have 25 years experience in martial arts and 15+ is in SD. I have a mind and an eye for martial arts techniques and see what others can not. with 25 years experience and plenty of fight experience I would say I should know the differences in style and their similarities.

Did I say they go to the Hospital ?? No I said medical attention. Do you not know the difference .....First aid is medical attention .

the key word being CAN but do they ...no ! Why?? Because they would not risk their lives or reputation in some street or bar fight. and if they were real warrior( there is a difference ) then they would be over in Iraq or Afganistan or some place else putting it all on the line.

My profile disappearing?? I never had my profile up .

Here I may sound like I am all talk ...but on the streets and in the gym I am all business

The last thing you wrote was the smartest thing you have the whole time ....thanks.

[Shaolin Wookie]

yes, I'd like to comment on that -

this "set" showed a total lack of any comprehension of how either weapon is supposed to be used; it lacked all but the most basic types of exchanges, and even those were poorly organized; the way the set was structured was that one person purely attacked and the other only defended for a number of moves, and then it reversed - this is the antithesis of how every other 2-person TCMA weapon set I've seen or learned works (I've seen one or two in my time); additionally, neither weapon was used properly in terms of the ranges and how each one handles the other when in their range of strength (e.g. - what do you do with a broadsword against a spear at long range to get into short range, and what does the spear player then do when fighting at short range)

I say nothing per se about the "skill" of the performers (which was pretty low), because some will no doubt say some schools and practitioners are beter than others, etc.; fine - I am talking about the content of the form purely on a technical level

some will argue against this based on the fact that I am not a high ranking SD blackbelt, that I am missing the "inner essence" of the forms, etc.

it's very simple: you can try to deflect the reality with all sort sorts of qualifiers, attacking the poster, etc.; bottom line is that, if you don't get why that set was totally lame, then you are beyond my personal powers of persuasion; I also can recommend another weapon set that you would no doubt find to be of very high level...
http://www.tigerkungfu.com/videos/Emei.html

Man, you guys are just silly. What's in those videos? It's a bunch of Shaolin Do practitioners of varying levels out in a park, having fun performing what they know and do. Some are good, some aren't as good. They're not forms competitors. They're average joes, some are exceptional joes, displaying their knowledge. I'm sure they'll be the first to admit they aren't perfect. But I am impressed by several of their demos. I think anyone who can use a chain whip and a broadsword at the same time deserves mad respect. I have that double dagger form, and I'm a first brown. I'd wager mine looks 10X better, but maybe it's because I practice mine more. He was displaying something he knew at whatever level he did, because they were looking for vareity. Is the guy a double dagger masteR? Probably not. Were any of them master's of what they were doing? Maybe. And I guarantee that all of them know they can improve, and probably like the forms they perform because they find new ways to improve them. I've seen the 5 animals guy do that form in several videos. He obviously loves that form. Is he perfect at it? I don't know it, but I'll guarantee he's not, and he'll admit it. BUt he loves it, and probably loves to share his love for it.

This was not the Chinese National or World Championships forms competition......

You guys are so **** silly, it makes me laugh.

I've attended a wushu, northern longfist school. They drilled their forms to look good. And you know what? They did. But they knew absolutely dick about fighting. And when the senior student ran through a broadsword form that looked nicer than mine, but didn't contain a single technique that wasn't in mine, and wasn't as long as mine---when he got finished, he was winded and breathing hard. There was no cardio outside the forms, and no physical conditioning. Just stretching and forms. No drills. Their forms looked good, structurally, but that was about it. But they weren't conditioned to use them.

You train according to your like. I llike SD's training.

There's already the infamous Wing Chun incident here in Atlanta that I caught an ass-chewing from (in this thread), when I said I visited a pretty well respected WC school and slapped the assistant instructor (a black sash with as much experience in his art as I have in mine) silly as he explained to me the mechanics of proper fighting. He asked me to use all of my training against his Biu Jee (spelling?) techniques in a friendly sparring match, and I ended up slapping him around because I had already split his lip when I connected a little too hard, and felt bad. His form was excellent. But I don't think he understood what he was doing. He acted as if I was going to play his game, which I wasn't. Fine, trap my hands (he was good at that), then punch....but I'm not just going to stand there. I can high block and punch, which I did, and split his lip if I want to (I didn't, but that was the result). CMA is a world filled with neurotic people. This web board seems to attract all of them....hahaha...myself included.

In my capoeira school where I cross-train, people explain to me the mechanics of fighting. I listen. I don't argue. But none of them have ever sparred. They've been in the roda, where you actually try not to hit someone. Yes, their kicks are fantastic. And the strength of capoeira is in learning to read the opponent and anticipate his moves before he makes them, and judging lightning quick how to dodge a malalua (spelling?) before it takes your head off.

But sparring with contact is different, and if I don't create openings, their knowledge base of what to do is so ridiculous, it makes me laugh a little inside as they tell me how I can whirlwind kick someone before they see it coming.

But I'll tell you this as well. The mestre of the school could kill me where I stand before I had a second to consider what my life had meant to me up to the moment I laid down the challenge of a death match.

You train according to your like, according to what you like.

If your'e good, you're good. But I've seen the mestre stumble. I've seen my instructors stumble and forget. And if you're not a forms competitor, looking for pure aesthetic, your form's never gonna be the standard. I guarantee that people in other arts (this I know, from having looked at so many arts in person in the last 6 months from various cultures, mostly CMA)--aren't perfect. It's the same cross-section you see in SD.

Get over yourselves....hahaha.....

[tattooedmonk]

All I can say is AHHHHRRRGGG!!!

No , we were talking about MMA ring fighters then MMA street fighter they are two different things as well.....moron. Once again just picking out what you want and leaving the rest . you been hit too many times in the head or something.

[djcaldwell]

No , we were talking about MMA ring fighters then MMA street fighter they are two different things as well.....moron. Once again just picking out what you want and leaving the rest . you been hit too many times in the head or something.

Everything with you is two, three and four different things.

I've already conceded to your vast martial ability. Carry on.

[tattooedmonk]

Everything with you is two, three and four different things.

I've already conceded to your vast martial ability. Carry on.

the greater and lesser aspects of yin and yang .( 4) Heaven , animals , earth, ( 3) yin yang(2) (1 )is all things united and 0 is all things whole. Thanks again for playing.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Then I consider myself very fortunate to have only been taught by people like my Sifu who flat out said there are not secrets - no special things to learn - just you're not ready for that yet.

And of course told me what you're saying now that it's basically what they tell students to keep them interested. You can't leave you haven't learned the secret handshake yet!!

There's even a secret handshake in capoeira. I know it, and you don't. If you study its history, you'd know why.

Like SD....I laugh with glee as I write this....capoeira was outlawed from being practiced, but people got together in dark alleys and did it anyways.

Who cares if it's just to keep people interested? It's marketing. It just means that your Sifu isn't capitalizing on the market to the fullest effect.