Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Shaolin Wookie]

No, the trick is to actually say: Yes, this is Shaolin-Do.

Don't deny. Embrace.

It doesn't matter whether the people in the vids are experienced or not. If they do sparring tech 1, and do it crappy, it's still sparring tech 1 of Shaolin-Do.

Their skill doesn't make it more or less Shaolin-Do.

If we have two videos, one of a form performed beautifully, and one of it performed crappily, it's still the same material.

IF we have two videos, one where the practitioner understands everything he's doing and moves fluidly with purpose, and one where the practitioner just snaps technique, bends his back, and violates training principles to get shoddily-enforced power, it's still the same material. (I had this happen recently: Someone far better than I martially and of much higher rank, who knows the techs and apps, still showed me how to get snap in a form, but violated some defense principles I don't in my forms, and I wasn't sure how to take it, b/c the Master of the school drilled me in those principles to get me out of cheating for snap, and the MAster's make faaaaar more sense).

But if Shaolin-Do produces only crappy videos, it would lead people to believe that nobody understands anything they're doing, and move choppily without directed purpose.

If any Shaolin Do practitioners backbite other SD vids, it's really a ****ty thing to do. If they don't post vids of themselves, yet insist on the importance of showcasing talent, which it seems some of the SD practitioners here do, and are confident of their understanding of the forms, and the content of them, what's the roadblock?

It's a MA forum, not Showtime at the Apollo. Bruce posted a vid (I didn't watch it, yet). He didn't get eviscerated. Sure, some A-hole might start trolling, but who cares? Bruce seems like a down-to-earth guy, and big enough to enforce for himself. I'm sure he wouldn't get miffed.

Honestly, if I had a digital cam, I wouldn't really care whether one person here thought I sucked. I'm demonstrating my knowledge of something. If I don't know it, then I don't know it. If I do it crappy, I do it crappy. But if I know one movement in a form, or one sequence, and I know it well, and I have fantastic purpose in that sequence, then props to me. PErhaps one day I might have it for the entire form, or all 900......just kiddin'....

[Shaolin Wookie]

Seriously.....when martial artists get together, they can be worse than a sewing circle.

And when they're on the internet, they can be as foppish as American Idol.

[Chain Whip]

most of the moves were illogical: for example, there is no range changing in the form at all: a major component of 2-person sets is to get both practitioners to learn how to use their weapon in a range that is inherently less advantageous (e.g. - spears at short range, swords at long range), and also how to get themselves out of that and back into the optimal range;

I hate to say this - but cjurakpt is right. The problem is how poorly is was taught/performed. All of the traits outlined DO exist in that form - just not in that rendition. This form is one of those SD forms that can be found move for move in book. ---Please save the tired arguements about if it can be found in book then GM The' must have got it from the book. Because the other fun arguement is if it can't be found in a book then it isn't traditional CMA and either GM The' made it up or it is an Indonsian form.

This form was originally taught move for move - exactly as it is displayed in "New Approach - Chinese Kung-Fu Training Methods - A Complete Course Book One" Published in Hong Kong in 1984. Written by Xi Yuntai, Zhang Wenguang, Xia Bohua, Wen Jingming and Cai Longyun - whoever they might be.

However, I suspect that if some equally untalented non- shaolin-do guys went to Hong Kong and learned the same form from one of the authors of the book and then posted an equally poor performance on YouTube it would be assessed differently. Probably it would be called a really nice form done at an acceptable level.

I have seen this form done by much faster, much more advanced, much more athletic shaolin-do guys - and it looks pretty impressive. - and no I do not have any video of a better performance.

[ninja matt]

How many break away schools do you guys have?

[BentMonk]

Don't use lame excuses, BM. You're tougher than that.

I didn't realize when I typed it how whinny my post sounded. Still, I do think there is a bit of a double standard when it comes to critiquing forms where SD is concerned. I've decided that adapted or not, I'm going to post myself on here soon. The flames will be glorious. Also, props to SDIC for posting himself doing Tai Chi. IMO he looks as good if not better than any other Tai Chi clip I've seen posted on here. I also notice that no one had anything to say about his clip. What gives?

[MasterKiller]

What gives?

Not many pajama-wearing hippies in the Shaolin forum. Take it to Emptyflower and see what they have to say....

[Chain Whip]

So, are you implying that Bruce is a pajama wearing hippie?

[MasterKiller]

So, are you implying that Bruce is a pajama wearing hippie?

Are you insinuating that I implied that Bruce is a pajama wearing hippie?

[brucereiter]

Are you insinuating that I implied that Bruce is a pajama wearing hippie?

lol i saw the dead once but i am more of a metal head but i do like bob marley .... .... lol ...

bruce

[brucereiter]

Not many pajama-wearing hippies in the Shaolin forum. Take it to Emptyflower and see what they have to say....

my point in showing tai chi chuan is it is part of shaolin do and it happens to be what i study for about 10 years. i have not learned any of the external styles of shaolin do.

there are many threads and post about and by me on emptyflower. i think i am generally respected there for my skills and ability to apply what i have learned from our system, i will say "they" do not like my hsing i very much but i am fine with that and i would agree with many of the observations they have had about my understanding and performance of hsingi.

here is some push hand / application practice ...
http://youtube.com/watch?v=9L9atX7yAFs

best,

bruce

[Chain Whip]

Are you insinuating that I implied that Bruce is a pajama wearing hippie?

Bruce is really not a hippie - and you will have to ask his wife about the pajama thing.

[BentMonk]

lol i saw the dead once but i am more of a metal head but i do like bob marley .... .... lol ...

bruce

I didn't get to see the Dead. I did go to Woodstock '99. Marley is awesome. BTW, what's wrong with pajama wearing hippies? They make great sparring partners.

[BlueTravesty]

Blue,

Do I detect a looking down your nose stance at people who study mantis?(as I do?)..and I might add..Mantis is not originally part of Shaolin..the actual shaolin temple..not SD...

Actually, no. As far as the "chumps" thing, I was actually being sarcastic. Mostly due to this interesting sentiment that a SD mantis practitioner would be viewed as less adept than a student of, say, Seven Star Mantis ONLY BECAUSE they are from SD (IE "knee-jerk anti-SD reaction") Personally, if they are viewed as less, I'd say it's because their curriculum doesn't allow them to reach the proficiency of someone who specializes in Mantis. Praying Mantis is a great style, and while I have never had the opportunity to practice it, it seems like a formidable style. I apologize, and did not mean any disrespect.

In addition to the slight sarcasm, I was proposing a solution to the supposed "knee-jerk anti-shaolin-do" sentiment. If a practitioner doesn't wear a gi, and doesn't identify him/herself as Shaolin-do, this would effectively take such a reaction out of the equation. It wouldn't, as Shaolin Wookie said make it any less SD, but it would keep this "unfair" attitude from being part of the equation.

And who knows? If they're really good, they might get someone to say "wow, I've been studying X style all my life, and this is awesome!" At which point the incognito SD practitioner could be all like "JOKES ON YOU, I LEARNED IT FROM SD ROFFLECOPTER LOLLERSKATES!"

But hey, if there is a video that some SD'er wants to post to show us all how the "real" thing looks, then by all means, do so. Just post a thread that says something like "Found an interesting Mantis/BaGua/Tiger Crane Video"

Again, no disrespect was meant toward you, Erasmus. And really, none was meant toward SD itself... I know if I trained in a multitude of HIGHLY DISPARATE FORMS AND STYLES, each with theories, concepts and strategies that require years of study individually, my form would have no hope of looking as good or being as technically sound as someone who specialized in that style. That's just how it goes. MMAists aren't insulted when someone tells them their hands aren't as good as Boxers, or they can't do the flying knee as well as Muay Thai people. They just shrug and keep cross-training.

[Erasmus Mingatt]

No problem...no offense taken..

As far as knee jerk reaction towards SD..while I admit that them wearing karate Gis makes it harder to giggle and take them seriously, and this guy Sin Kwang The claims that the guy with the wolf face was at one time "grandmaster of the S. Temple"(I wonder what the current S.T. has to say about this)..I really couldn't care less about what they wear. What I have an issue with is their self-aggrandizing statements.

900 styles? It would be d-man near impossible to learn 900 FORMS much less 900 styles.

One could are there are 900(or perhaps more) styles of Kung fu if you consolidate Shaolin, Wu-Tang and E-Mei temples(I'm speaking about the written ones..not "lost" systems)..but to say there are 900 styles in one? And that it's posisble to learn all of them?

That's when I must say bullsh-t!!!

[Chain Whip]

It is supposed to be 900 forms, not styles. Maybe 200 have been taught to date. Depending on how you count them. There are people currently in Shaolin-Do that can actually do over 100 forms. Not all schools wear the gis, Tennessee and Georgia schools wear frog button uniforms. Not that clothes really matter. GM The' does not claim to be able to actually do 900 forms at any time. It is more like he at one time saw the forms and practiced them for a short while. Now he has notes for a lot of forms and prepares the form off the notes when he is getting ready to teach it.

As to the Southern Temple.......GM The' has been to both of the current Southern Temples (rumor has it that a third is in the works) No fights broke out when he got there. At the government run "temple" in Putian they brought the same wushu coach that had been at the Northern Temple for awhile. They are a very nice northern style wu shu school. I'm pretty sure they have nothing to say considering they don't even teach kung-fu.

The Quanzhou Temple that was built by a Japanese group actually does Southern style kung-fu - including sai and tonfa . Don't know what the group from Japan thinks about a guy from Indonesia claiming Southern Temple lineage, but at least they do kung-fu