Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Lamassu]

Just ignore the guy, he's obviously a troll. This little pi$$ing contest he's reviving is the same old cr@p that get's regurgitated over and over on this thread. Let him have his delusions; I don't know what he thinks he could possibly accomplish here except antagonize SDers. No one's going to say "OMG, all this time I was happy learning Shaolin Do, but then this anonymous jackhole on an internet thread says what I'm learning is cr@p! I have SEEN the light! Thank you brother, I will now leave the school and try to find something this non-entity doesn't have an issue with."

[Judge Pen]

Just ignore the guy, he's obviously a troll. This little pi$$ing contest he's reviving is the same old cr@p that get's regurgitated over and over on this thread. Let him have his delusions; I don't know what he thinks he could possibly accomplish here except antagonize SDers. No one's going to say "OMG, all this time I was happy learning Shaolin Do, but then this anonymous jackhole on an internet thread says what I'm learning is cr@p! I have SEEN the light! Thank you brother, I will now leave the school and try to find something this non-entity doesn't have an issue with."

I was thinking of looking up the thread discussing the chinese origins of the sai.

[Erasmus Mingatt]

"I said that...in this thread. With all respect, "do" is an english spelling of "the way". How do you spell it in Japanese? With Kanji. How do you spell "the way" in Chinese? With Chinese characters. How do you romanize it? Depending on the dilect and the standardization (pinyin or wadegiles) dao, tao, typically, but the use of the romanization "do" means nothing in and of itself. "

No. Try again. Do is the pronunciation of the Japanese character. You confuse spelling with writing. I can write the character in Kanji..but the way I say it should not be confused with the way it is written. "The way" in Chinese could be "Tao" or depending on the dialect(over 1000 dialects) there are a few other ways it could be pronounced. In the same way that the word "Hung"(in Chinese) could be translated into "Red", "Bright" or "Flood".



"SD also uses the romanization "chien" for fist instead of the more common "chuan" or "quan". It represents a particular romanizaiton of a particular dialect, but the meaning is the same. Why not call it "shaolin dao" or "shaolin tao" or even "si lum dao" I don't know, but I have never understood why the name should be offensive."

Man..I sure do wish I knew where you get these off the wall assumptions from!! I never said the name was offensive. I never said that the style "Shao-lin Do" doesn't exist either. What I AM saying however..is that there is not a traditional kung fu style affiliated with the Shaolin temple called Shaolin-Do..it's a modern invention. As someone correctly put it before..Shao-lin Do exists..but it's not part of Shaolin. Karate has kung fu origins also..and yes..Karate exists..but Karate is not a shaolin kung fu style. Period!

"As for the gi statements, have you read the latest issue of KFM? Check out page 104. Are you going to call out these Danish kung fu practitioners as bull sh!t because they are wearing sashes with gis and practicing barefoot? Be consistent at least."

I am saying that I have..based on real life observation up close with my own two eyes..observed many styles which wear karate gis and wear karate belts and claim to be "kung fu" yet when I look for certain characteristics that are germaine and specific to kung fu in their actual MOVEMENTS..be they forms or even just individual patterns WITHIN forms..what these people almost universally perform is not any style of kung fu. It looks alot more like Shotokan/Goju-Ryu karate. That's all I mean.
__________________

[Erasmus Mingatt]

Lamassu,

Call me what you want..a troll..whatever.

"No one's going to say "OMG, all this time I was happy learning Shaolin Do, but then this anonymous jackhole on an internet thread says what I'm learning is cr@p! I have SEEN the light!"

I don't know what people are going to say. But I'm willing to bet the farm that if you took someone who was studying "Shao-lin Do" or "Temple kung fu" or other hybrid system that if they compared what they learned to a style with a traceable history, lineage and forms that are unique to that style..they would see a world of difference!!

If you doubt me..try studying some Hung Ga kung fu for a while..or some Wing Chun.

[Lamassu]

I don't know what people are going to say. But I'm willing to bet the farm that if you took someone who was studying "Shao-lin Do" or "Temple kung fu" or other hybrid system that if they compared what they learned to a style with a traceable history, lineage and forms that are unique to that style..they would see a world of difference!!

So what? All you're saying is if I compare Shaolin-Do with any other TCMA, then I'd notice a difference. No kidding?! My problem is that you, an anonymous non-entity, says Shaolin Do is fake because it doesn't have the similar trappings of other TCMA's in the U.S. My point is: why should I care what you think? I don't know anything about you, what (if any) martial art you study, where your school is located, who is the source of your kung fu material or if you've even participated in a class at Shaolin Do. Have you, or are you simply making generalized statements from what you've seen on the internet. Why does it bother you that Shaolin Do exists? There's nothing you can do about it except pi$$ and moan, and we really don't want to hear it.

[TingHexagram50]

"So what? All you're saying is if I compare Shaolin-Do with any other TCMA, then I'd notice a difference. No kidding?!"

You're saying "all your saying" as if it's inconsequential..believe me--it's pretty important!!


"My problem is that you, an anonymous non-entity, says Shaolin Do is fake because it doesn't have the similar trappings of other TCMA's in the U.S."

I'll say it again. I'm sure it exists..I'm just saying it's not a kung fu style.




"My point is: why should I care what you think?"

TaDa!! You shouldn't!

"I don't know anything about you, what (if any) martial art you study, where your school is located, who is the source of your kung fu material or if you've even participated in a class at Shaolin Do."

Does it matter where I study? If I participated in a SD class would I be given the opportunity to learn all 900 forms ? LOL


"Have you, or are you simply making generalized statements from what you've seen on the internet."


Go back and re-read what I stated about styles calling themselves kung fu but really aren't. You made the gesture I should take up SD. I'll return the favor..study a legit kung fu style and then tell me what you notice. If it matters...I study 8 step mantis. www.8step.com

"Why does it bother you that Shaolin Do exists?"

It doesn't. It makes me laugh about the 900 forms claim, the claim that Shaolin is a system and the claim that Wolfman/Sin Kwang The are/were the "grandmasters of the Shaolin temple". Such malapropism. It's like saying "The church we go to has a great Rabbi leading the congregation in the ways of Islam".



"There's nothing you can do about it except pi$$ and moan, and we really don't want to hear it."

Then don't read what I write. And if SD was a legit kung fu style..this thread would be less than a page long..not over 300!!

[Lamassu]

I'm sorry I don't quite comprehend that, could you clarify please?

[Baqualin]

Lamassu,

Call me what you want..a troll..whatever.

"No one's going to say "OMG, all this time I was happy learning Shaolin Do, but then this anonymous jackhole on an internet thread says what I'm learning is cr@p! I have SEEN the light!"

I don't know what people are going to say. But I'm willing to bet the farm that if you took someone who was studying "Shao-lin Do" or "Temple kung fu" or other hybrid system that if they compared what they learned to a style with a traceable history, lineage and forms that are unique to that style..they would see a world of difference!!

If you doubt me..try studying some Hung Ga kung fu for a while..or some Wing Chun.

Dear Mr. Erranus,
It's really great to see someone have so much fun about something they have no clue about....Thanks,
BQ

[Baqualin]

"So what? All you're saying is if I compare Shaolin-Do with any other TCMA, then I'd notice a difference. No kidding?!"

You're saying "all your saying" as if it's inconsequential..believe me--it's pretty important!!


"My problem is that you, an anonymous non-entity, says Shaolin Do is fake because it doesn't have the similar trappings of other TCMA's in the U.S."

I'll say it again. I'm sure it exists..I'm just saying it's not a kung fu style.




"My point is: why should I care what you think?"

TaDa!! You shouldn't!

"I don't know anything about you, what (if any) martial art you study, where your school is located, who is the source of your kung fu material or if you've even participated in a class at Shaolin Do."

Does it matter where I study? If I participated in a SD class would I be given the opportunity to learn all 900 forms ? LOL


"Have you, or are you simply making generalized statements from what you've seen on the internet."


Go back and re-read what I stated about styles calling themselves kung fu but really aren't. You made the gesture I should take up SD. I'll return the favor..study a legit kung fu style and then tell me what you notice. If it matters...I study 8 step mantis. www.8step.com

"Why does it bother you that Shaolin Do exists?"

It doesn't. It makes me laugh about the 900 forms claim, the claim that Shaolin is a system and the claim that Wolfman/Sin Kwang The are/were the "grandmasters of the Shaolin temple". Such malapropism. It's like saying "The church we go to has a great Rabbi leading the congregation in the ways of Islam".



"There's nothing you can do about it except pi$$ and moan, and we really don't want to hear it."

Then don't read what I write. And if SD was a legit kung fu style..this thread would be less than a page long..not over 300!!

I believe there's a few mantis threads over a page....especially on other forums.
BQ

[Baqualin]

"So what? All you're saying is if I compare Shaolin-Do with any other TCMA, then I'd notice a difference. No kidding?!"

You're saying "all your saying" as if it's inconsequential..believe me--it's pretty important!!


"My problem is that you, an anonymous non-entity, says Shaolin Do is fake because it doesn't have the similar trappings of other TCMA's in the U.S."

I'll say it again. I'm sure it exists..I'm just saying it's not a kung fu style.




"My point is: why should I care what you think?"

TaDa!! You shouldn't!

"I don't know anything about you, what (if any) martial art you study, where your school is located, who is the source of your kung fu material or if you've even participated in a class at Shaolin Do."

Does it matter where I study? If I participated in a SD class would I be given the opportunity to learn all 900 forms ? LOL


"Have you, or are you simply making generalized statements from what you've seen on the internet."


Go back and re-read what I stated about styles calling themselves kung fu but really aren't. You made the gesture I should take up SD. I'll return the favor..study a legit kung fu style and then tell me what you notice. If it matters...I study 8 step mantis. www.8step.com

"Why does it bother you that Shaolin Do exists?"

It doesn't. It makes me laugh about the 900 forms claim, the claim that Shaolin is a system and the claim that Wolfman/Sin Kwang The are/were the "grandmasters of the Shaolin temple". Such malapropism. It's like saying "The church we go to has a great Rabbi leading the congregation in the ways of Islam".



"There's nothing you can do about it except pi$$ and moan, and we really don't want to hear it."

Then don't read what I write. And if SD was a legit kung fu style..this thread would be less than a page long..not over 300!!

Mr. Ting,
Oh by the way are you speaking for Mr. Erranus

[Chain Whip]

Eramus,

So now Shaolin-Do is fake, because you don’t like our uniforms (maybe TN and GA are okay though), you question our lineage and don’t believe anyone could learn even 400 forms. You are correct – YOU could not learn 400 forms because you have placed that limitation upon yourself. That has no bearing on another person’s capability. I may not be able to or even wish to learn that much and you can certainly question whether knowing that much would be valuable. That does not make it impossible.

It appears that you are a Hung Gar guy and I am very happy for you. It is a great style. Can you clarify for me the significant differences between a Hung Gar guy that has about 2500 hours of training time in and a Shaolin-Do guy with the same amount of time in. I can tell you the SD guy will around 75 forms at this point. Maybe a few less, possibly 15 or 20 more though. Let’s assume they practice in pants and T-shirts, have no ranking system, never learn a single word in Chinese and never learn anything about lineage or history. We will also assume that they have identical aptitudes and athleticism. This should leave us with the only “real” part in martial arts - the development of body mechanics, physical and mental conditioning. In what way will their minds and bodies be so different as to validate the “reality” of Hung Gar and the ‘fakeness” of Shaolin-Do.

[dragonf1y]

Chain Whip,

i think you are missing the point as to why people despise SD.

It appears that you are a Hung Gar guy and I am very happy for you. It is a great style. Can you clarify for me the significant differences between a Hung Gar guy that has about 2500 hours of training time in and a Shaolin-Do guy with the same amount of time in. I can tell you the SD guy will around 75 forms at this point. Maybe a few less, possibly 15 or 20 more though. Let’s assume they practice in pants and T-shirts, have no ranking system, never learn a single word in Chinese and never learn anything about lineage or history. We will also assume that they have identical aptitudes and athleticism. This should leave us with the only “real” part in martial arts - the development of body mechanics, physical and mental conditioning. In what way will their minds and bodies be so different as to validate the “reality” of Hung Gar and the ‘fakeness” of Shaolin-Do.

For converstation sake, lets throw Karate and TKD into that mix.

Now let's say that they are claiming to be Kung Fu.

Regardless of hours trained, development of body mechanics, physical and mental conditioning or any of that other great stuff, one fact still remains...

Karate & TKD are not 'Kung Fu'

THe same is true for SD.

To claim so would be either ingnorant or dishonest.

Which are you?

[Erasmus Mingatt]

For the record:

TingHexagram50 and I are housemates. I study preying mantis. He studies Wu tai chi. He doesn't have a computer..I do..so he asked if he could create a new screename. I said yeah as long as I can be aware of what he posts. I meant to log on before under my ER screename not his. Oops.

Hopefully this will clarify things..


""So now Shaolin-Do is fake,"

"I don't believe I ever used the word "fake". I think Ninjitsu is real also..I just don't say it's kung fu. If there is something about this point you still don't get..I'd be happy to break it down for you further..



"because you don’t like our uniforms (maybe TN and GA are okay though),"

Like? Now we are clearly going off on a tangent and into fashion sense. I think Karate uniforms look cool and like the design..just like I like kf uniforms, Aikido uniforms, Kendo uniforms,etc. But I don't wear an Aikido uniform and do Aikido maneuvers and philosophies and call it "kung fu".


"you question our lineage and don’t believe anyone could learn even 400 forms."

I'm not saying that this fellow Su Kong Djin(I'm sure I messed up the name--no disrepect intended) didn't exist. It's his claim of being "grandmaster of Shaolin" that makes me raise an eyebrow. I believe someone could learn 400 forms if each form were only 10 moves each. And why does it bother you that I don't believe it? I'm allowed to believe what I wish as are you. Better to be skeptical than to just accept something in blind faith. I could say I learned 10,000 forms. Doesn't mean I did. And for that matter...I'm not impressed with numbers. One could make the argument that all one would need in a fight would the mastery of just ONE form. We have a form in mantis called Da Fong Che(Large rolling wheel). I could take that form and only that form and practice it alone for 30 years...and beat to pieces someone who learned 400 or 900 forms just having a cursory understanding of each. Scratch that. I could practice one kick for 30 years and go against someone who learned 1,000 forms. Guess who is more likely to win? The kicker!!!


"That does not make it impossible."

Theoretically..ANYTHING is possible. I'm not questioning whether it's possible..I'm questioning whether it is LIKELY..vast difference



"It is a great style." Have you studied any?


"Can you clarify for me the significant differences between a Hung Gar guy that has about 2500 hours of training time in and a Shaolin-Do guy with the same amount of time in."

Can't remember if it was you or someone else...but someone accused me of making a "p-ssing contest" about this. Now who is making the contest? There isn't a meter or a timer or pre-programmed ammount of hours that determines expertise. Which is one of the reasons why the belt system in so many respects is rather peculiar. People have this cultural authority which says "Well I got a black belt so..you can't tell me ,etc.". I've seen black belts get their a-ses handed to them by people who have lower belts. 2500 hours may be impressive compared to someone who has no experience..but the other part of the equation has to be HEART!!


"I can tell you the SD guy will around 75 forms at this point. Maybe a few less, possibly 15 or 20 more though. Let’s assume they practice in pants and T-shirts, have no ranking system, never learn a single word in Chinese and never learn anything about lineage or history."


As Felix Unger from the show "The Odd Couple" once said: "Never assume..because when you assume..you make an A-S out of you and me".


"We will also assume that they have identical aptitudes and athleticism. This should leave us with the only “real” part in martial arts - the development of body mechanics, physical and mental conditioning."

You keep coming back to this body mechanics thing. There is alot more to KF than body mechanics. There is: taking into account your opponents size, speed, leverage, age, conditioning, mental state, years of training and avenue of approach. I could go on and on. I also must take into consideration my own ability in these areas.


"In what way will their minds and bodies be so different as to validate the “reality” of Hung Gar and the ‘fakeness” of Shaolin-Do."

It seems I've hit a nerve. I'm not glorifying Hung Ga..there are aspects to it that I think are impractical and there are probably things about SD that work well in combat also. I hold no style on a pedestal. I'm also not saying that Shaolin-Do doesn't teach people how to fight. I'm saying that some of the ways that concepts and structures are identified in the style are not commensurate with what styles emanating from the Shaolin Temple are known for. If I created a style of Karate but didn't use the term "sensei" and made comments such as "Erasmus-Ryu Karate was started by Erasmus Mingatt--the Emperor of Japan..but we have no belt ranking system and no katas(two characteristics of karate which identify it AS Karate)" most traditional karate styles would scream "Bu-l****"!! See my point?

Peace,
EM

[Chain Whip]

Eramus

No - I don't see your point - mostly because you don't have one.

Your post today at 2:33pm was titled "SD is Fake!!" - so I think you did say that. Neither you or "Dragonfly" or your boyfriend "TingHexagram50" seem to be able to answer my simple question on the difference in the value of the training.

I could take that form and only that form and practice it alone for 30 years...and beat to pieces someone who learned 400 or 900 forms just having a cursory understanding of each. Scratch that. I could practice one kick for 30 years and go against someone who learned 1,000 forms. Guess who is more likely to win? The kicker!!!

You are wrong. Tell me where you live and I'll get a SD guy there to show you. For your sake I hope you don't live in Atlanta - or anywhere Bruce might travel to.

because you don’t like our uniforms (maybe TN and GA are okay though),"

Like? Now we are clearly going off on a tangent and into fashion sense. I think Karate uniforms look cool and like the design..just like I like kf uniforms, Aikido uniforms, Kendo uniforms,etc. But I don't wear an Aikido uniform and do Aikido maneuvers and philosophies and call it "kung fu".

glad to hear you like the uniforms

2500 hours may be impressive compared to someone who has no experience..but the other part of the equation has to be HEART!!

Let's make heart part of aptitude - and try and answer the simple question.

"I can tell you the SD guy will around 75 forms at this point. Maybe a few less, possibly 15 or 20 more though. Let’s assume they practice in pants and T-shirts, have no ranking system, never learn a single word in Chinese and never learn anything about lineage or history."


As Felix Unger from the show "The Odd Couple" once said: "Never assume..because when you assume..you make an A-S out of you and me".

That is the least intelligent answer I have ever heard for a hypothetical question.

You keep coming back to this body mechanics thing. There is alot more to KF than body mechanics.

Really - try telling that to the guy with superior mechanics as his beats your ass. Or try telling that to the doctor when you need surgery for poor mechanics - or poor health.

There is: taking into account your opponents size, speed, leverage, age, conditioning, mental state, years of training and avenue of approach. I could go on and on. I also must take into consideration my own ability in these areas.

That is why my hypothetical question eliminated those varibles. Again, I'll speak slowly now...... try...... to.....answer.....the.......question

are not commensurate with what styles emanating from the Shaolin Temple are known for.

This comment is based on what??? A person who hasn't been to either of the wushu temples and seems to believe there was an unbroken history along with great records. Do you realize there was NO SHAOLIN TEMPLE since long before you were born - until about 25 years ago when it looked to be a promising way to make money from people (read you) that didn't know any better. -- My mistake - I inferred you might be 25+ years old. But your posts indicate a 13 year old kid with an internet connection.

[dragonf1y]

Neither you or "Dragonfly" or your boyfriend "TingHexagram50" seem to be able to answer my simple question on the difference in the value of the training.

OK, since you obviously have a hard time understanding the point of posts, I will spell it out for you simply.

The 'value' of the training will likely not be much different (my opinion only). I will even say the value of training received traing received from a good SD instructor (oxy moron?) would be greater than the value of the training from a poor, yet actuall Kung Fu teacher.

That is not the point.

The point is this....

You would not call Karate or TKD as Kung Fu.

Why then would you call SD as Kung Fu?

Again I ask, Ingnorance or Dishonesty?