Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Chain Whip]

The broadsword and drunken look like Karate guys trying to play Kung Fu. They have the execution, but not the flavor,

I would say you are completely correct on this "flavor" point.

When we have done demos in China, they recognize our "flavor" as being traditional CMA. It appears many people aren't able to recognize TCMA because they have only seen modern traditional and wushu (not that there seems to be much difference)

Besides hitting with power what else is it that we do that "flavors" the movements in a way you are unfamilar with?

[Erasmus Mingatt]

Look..

If you're being attacked..I don't care if you call what you learn in the style "oogie-boogies" instead of forms. I also don't care if you practice your MA in the nude or with armor like the Knights did in mideval times. Nor do I care if you claim to know 5 million forms or just 3!(if you exclude weapon sets..Wing Chun only has 3 forms). A raving psychotic wants to cause you HARM..if you jab the f-cker in the eye and elbow smash him in the windpipe..unless he's on PCP and thinks he can fly/is Jesus..he's more than likely going to go down. Call it kung fu, shaolin do, Dying slug style, I'm hung like a bear on Growth hormone fist..who cares!(this is "from a pragmatic POV)

BUT...

"To say it isn't CMA is silly."


Technically Karate is CMA based..technically so is Jiu Jitsu,etc.etc. When these styles grew and evolved from Feudal Japan/Okinawa and were modified by subtracting moves and changing around certain philosophies..for example the way punches are thrown and how power is generating in a different manner..it may have Chinese ORIGINS..but it really becomes something else. When Bruce Lee modified Wing Chun and added aspects of boxing and fencing..it was no longer Wing Chun..it became the core identity of JKD. I'm not saying this is bad..nor am I saying it is good..I'm just saying it is what
"IS"





"Yes, we use too many Japanese terms, but that does not change the forms/katas Also, a lot of the basic material looks like Japanese Karate - seeing we believe the Japanese got their martial arts from China - shouldn't real traditional Chinese martial arts have a similar look?"

Real traditional Chinese martial arts should look LIKE real TCMA.
I think again to clarify it would be helpful to understand that I don't look at another form of MA and say "If it's not KF..it's worthless..I don't want to learn it". Aikido and Kuk Sool Won are two styles..I'd like to learn..one is Japanese..one is Korean. But both are performed and look COMPLETELY DIFFERENT than eachother since both are looking to do completely different things. You don't try and learn TKD and then call it "Aikido-Do" because it's not Aikido!


"In other words it isn't that our early stuff looks like Japanese Karate, it is that Japanese Karate looks like rudimentary Shaolin."

In alot of respects..Japanese Karate IS rudimentary Shaolin..but that's not the point. Japanese Karate doesn't claim that Sensei ------- who founded the system was GM of Shaolin.

"If this is true (and I am not old enough to have been there and witnessed the first time a Japanese person learned from a Chinese person) then it would be hard to say you are doing Shaolin unless you had material that strongly resembled Japanese Karate."

I suppose but to get the time line accurate it would be the other way around. And again.. what is meant by rudimentary? Shaolin as a PLACE..has hundreds and perhaps thousands of styles. Some are sub styles..some are modifications of existing styles..some are novel and some are dead styles. I would have less of an issue if Robert Smith said --------- or -------- - Do is a modification of --------- style of kung fu. Saying a modification of Shaolin is a malapropism. It's like saying that ------ style is a modification of Dojo. One is the place where Karate-ka practice..and what they practice is the MA.

I'll explain it from a slightly different stance. There is a "kung fu" school about 5 miles away from where I live(It's not SD but another school). When I first moved here I called this school and asked "What style of Kung fu do you teach"? They paused and said "Shaolin". I thanked them politely and hung up. Saying one teaches Shaolin is almost like calling a 4 year University and asking "What majors does your University offer?" and the representative says "College". See my point now?



"You would also need the I Chin Ching and a few other things to be real traditional." One can learn traditional kung fu without never opening the I-Ching.

"However, if you believe that it is only CMA if it falls into the what we would classify as being modern. We have many forms that are taught in other CMA schools. Our Tiger/Crane, Classical Hua, Preying Mantis, some spear forms, some of the Drunken forms, several of the sword forms, etc. etc. etc. If we aren't doing CMA then most CMA schools aren't either."

OK..yes..but again to digress. Tiger-Crane is a form from Hung Ga. Classical Hua(flower fist) is a form originally derived from Bak Sil Lum(an umbrella term to include the 5 Northern fighting families). Preying Mantis is a complete style with many branches and within "Preying mantis" are different forms.

If SD wants to borrow forms from other styles fine. But give credit to those styles. Don't say that these forms are part of a system that is named after a temple.

[MasterKiller]

When we have done demos in China, they recognize our "flavor" as being traditional CMA. It appears many people aren't able to recognize TCMA because they have only seen modern traditional and wushu (not that there seems to be much difference)

blah blah.

The Chinese say....When we were in CHina....This old Chinese guy at a tournament said...

Fortune Cookie anectdotes.

[Lamassu]

The broadsword and drunken look like Karate guys trying to play Kung Fu. They have the execution, but not the flavor, which is indicative of all the SD I've seen. The time spent in Indonesia seems to have changed the way your people execute Chinese forms, which is why people tell you it's not CMA, even though you can see CMA technqiues.

JP's Horse Cutter was probably the most Chinese-looking SD form I've seen so far, and that includes the videos of Sin The'.

I've noticed that as well when comparing SD forms with other TCM forms. SD isn't excecuted as fluidly as say, Hung Gar, Wing Chun, or Shaolin (in reference to the bald guys living in the temples). I've also noticed the utter lack of forms comparably similar from our school and others. All this is frustrating for a student of SD when talking shop with martial artists in other schools, because our technique isn't traditionally TCM in excecution, but neither is it karate. Eh, all I know is I likes it and it makes me good!

[Chain Whip]

I'll explain it from a slightly different stance. There is a "kung fu" school about 5 miles away from where I live(It's not SD but another school). When I first moved here I called this school and asked "What style of Kung fu do you teach"? They paused and said "Shaolin". I thanked them politely and hung up. Saying one teaches Shaolin is almost like calling a 4 year University and asking "What majors does your University offer?" and the representative says "College". See my point now?

Again it is your issue with terminology. If you made the same phone call to many schools in China, especially the ones in DongFong. You have to hang up on most of them. Probably the biggest school in Beijing is called something like "The Beijing Shaolin Wushu Academy" The head guy there "trained at the Shaolin Temple" He says he does Shaolin Kung-Fu. Their demos are pure modern wushu with parlor trick "chi demos" -- exactly like they do at the Temples.

[Chain Whip]

blah blah.

The Chinese say....When we were in CHina....This old Chinese guy at a tournament said...

Fortune Cookie anectdotes.

Great answer - I see what you mean about "flavor" I'm converted now - can I come train with you??????

[Erasmus Mingatt]

http://www.morrowsacademy.com/

Another guy who is misrepresenting kung fu. I checked this guy out twice and he's doing Shotokan Karate. I asked to see some of his 5 animal forms and I don't know WHAT the he-l he's doing.

[KungFu Student]

Great answer - I see what you mean about "flavor" I'm converted now - can I come train with you??????

The real question you need to ask yourself is why should you care what they naysayer’s on this thread think? As you have seen, no matter what you say or do will change their minds, they are already made up. If you are happy with your training, then stick with it, and pay no attention to the detractors.

[MasterKiller]

Burying your head in the sand is always a good tactic in life.

Use what others say to inform yourself.

If you like it, that's cool. But that's no reason to walk around ignorant.

[KungFu Student]

Burying your head in the sand is always a good tactic in life.

Use what others say to inform yourself.

If you like it, that's cool. But that's no reason to walk around ignorant.

How is being content with your training and disagreeing with another's point of view being ignorant? I personally don't see the point in trying to convince someone who's mind is already made up.

[Black Jack II]

Technically Karate is CMA based..technically so is Jiu Jitsu,etc.etc

One of the biggest myths ever....no proof in this.

[Mas Judt]

Well, Sumo probably is rooted in CMA ... the Sumo syllabus of throws is classical Shuai Chiao minus the big belly...

Some karate is rooted in Fukien Kung Fu - although they totally misinterpreted it. The similarities between 5 ancestors fist and some Karate is fairly obvious - although it the karate version is certainly something different now....


But it is not a valid thing to say 'karate evolved from CMA, therefore karate is the same as CMA or Shoalin.

The only serious issue CMA players have with SD is the outright lies and BS about 'the grandmaster of shaolin' et al. Long hashed over. Isn't this put to rest yet?

[MasterKiller]

How is being content with your training and disagreeing with another's point of view being ignorant? I personally don't see the point in trying to convince someone who's mind is already made up.

Well, how does SD not looking like CMA keep you from being content?

A lot of people seem to have an enormous amount of emotional and personal investment in maintaining that SD is real Shaolin.

If you are truely content in the training, it shouldn't matter.

[Lamassu]

Well, how does SD not looking like CMA keep you from being content?

A lot of people seem to have an enormous amount of emotional and personal investment in maintaining that SD is real Shaolin.

If you are truely content in the training, it shouldn't matter.

It doesn't.

[MasterKiller]

It doesn't.

But for some on here, it does...