Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[KungFu Student]

But for some on here, it does...

I agree in the fact that some put too much emphasis on whether or not some art is considered traditional, has lineage ect. If that is important to you, great. The things that were important to me;
1. Would it make me into something more that I was? (An overweight slacker )
2. Is it something I would want to devote a part of my life to and strive to excel at?
3. Could I afford it? (Hey, I have to watch my pennies!)

I don't expect the execution of my forms to look like a Shaolin monk, a TCMA practitioner, or anybody else. I am who I am, and the way I go through my forms will be different. I make no claims, and if someone does not like the fact that it does not look like what they believe is TCMA, then so be it.

[Erasmus Mingatt]

"Again it is your issue with terminology."

But chainwhip..it's IMPORTANT amigo!! If you are scheduled to get your appendix removed and before you go under the gas..the surgeon looks at your chart and says "Ah.yes..Mr. Chainwhip..we see you are going to have one of your testicles removed"..wouldn't you say "Uh..hey doc..WHOA!!..you got the wrong chart there sir"?

Take some verifiable traditional kung fu for a few years and THEN you will see what I mean. Some examples of good styles include(in no particular order): Wing Chun, Eagle Claw(not eagle claw wu-shu), Preying mantis(there are several versions--some include 7 star, 8 step, wah lum, plum blossom, tai chi mantis, 6 harmonies), Hung Gar, Choy Li Fut, Bak Mei(white eyebrow style), Chang Chuan and others.



"Probably the biggest school in Beijing is called something like "The Beijing Shaolin Wushu Academy" The head guy there "trained at the Shaolin Temple" He says he does Shaolin Kung-Fu. Their demos are pure modern wushu"

Wu shu and kung fu are not the same thing. Wu Shu is a demonstration sport..it's analagous to Sport Tae Kwon Do when compared to the TKD"

"with parlor trick "chi demos"


chi is not a parlor trick. There are some things that some sifus do which is not a real fair demonstration of chi--but trust me...it exists. It would be wise to not counter with "no..chi is a myth"..unless you want to open up a can of worms and have this thread go on for ANOTHER 300 something pages!



What state do you live in? I'm sure I could recommend several schools..just for your own knowledge...you'd be pleasantly suprised at the difference.

[Judge Pen]

JP's Horse Cutter was probably the most Chinese-looking SD form I've seen so far, and that includes the videos of Sin The'.

That's funny to me, because that form has been done that way for as long as I can remember. I did it the way I was taught and I didn't try to change its appearance in any way. And, I kow I'm really a poor forms person in comparison.

I will say that the drunk guy was very very good. I have trouble seeing how his techniques, such as the 360 degree front sweep that I've only seen done that way in other chinese styles, doesn't look CMA enough. I can understand people picking at a drunk form's applicability/utility, but not the origin of the techniques displayed.

I'll agree that there has been some influence on the way SD is perfomred that has altered the way its forms are done when compared to other CMA forms. And, at the same time, the way that CMA evolved in other areas. I think that SD in Bangdung was probably isolated from other CMA and it took on more of a power emphasis instead of the flowing emphasis that other CMA has more of. That makes SD its own unique animal, but I still maintain that its origins are chinese, not japanese, korean or indonesian.

[Erasmus Mingatt]

"That makes SD its own unique animal, but I still maintain that its origins are chinese, not japanese, korean or indonesian."

Doesn't this get tiring after a while? Having an ORIGIN isn't the same thing as BEING the same thing.

My origins are from my mother and father. I have traits from both..but you don't see me saying "I AM my father(or mother)."

[Judge Pen]

Classical Hua(flower fist) is a form originally derived from Bak Sil Lum(an umbrella term to include the 5 Northern fighting families). Preying Mantis is a complete style with many branches and within "Preying mantis" are different forms.

If SD wants to borrow forms from other styles fine. But give credit to those styles. Don't say that these forms are part of a system that is named after a temple.

Bak Si Lum is southern shaolin, right. Si Lum is the Cantonese pronouciation of the mandarian shaolin. Hua chuan that is taught in SD isn't the flower fist but the hua mountain fist, a nothern long-fist form.

Here's what I believe: Many teachers taugth many styles in Indonesia with Ie Chang Ming being recognized as the lead instructor. He claimed lineage to Su Kong (whether true or not). Several forms from many divergent styles were taught. Whether these styles originated in a shaolin temple or were incorporated into a shoalin temple later--they have a shaolin connection. Hence the art that is taught in the U.S. is a patchwork of chinese forms with a connection with the temple that have taken on its own unique flavor. It is its own animal. Maybe it deserves its own designation. It is kung fu and it is different than kung fu. It has styles and techniques that are only found in kung fu, but it is recognizable as flavored differently. So what is it? As offensive as it may be, I will still say kung fu. How many styles of CMA were derived from another and modified to the point that they are divergently different from the styles that composed it? Are those styles not still kung fu even if unrecognizable to the people that practice the root style?

To go back to the Bruce Lee example, he modified wing chun and added elements from other arts. Is JKD a style of kung fu or something else?

[Judge Pen]

"That makes SD its own unique animal, but I still maintain that its origins are chinese, not japanese, korean or indonesian."

Doesn't this get tiring after a while? Having an ORIGIN isn't the same thing as BEING the same thing.

My origins are from my mother and father. I have traits from both..but you don't see me saying "I AM my father(or mother)."

Nah, this is fun! Ultimately all martial arts is an evolution into something else. It amuses me at how a name or the trappings can anger people so much when I dare say that their MA probably would be unrecognizable to people 250 years ago who supposedly did the same stuff.

[Judge Pen]

Isn't this put to rest yet?

As long as new people come along and stumble across threads like this, this matter will be hashed over again and again.

How are things going? I keep meaning to get down and check out R. Clear's school close to me.

[MasterKiller]

I will say that the drunk guy was very very good. I have trouble seeing how his techniques, such as the 360 degree front sweep that I've only seen done that way in other chinese styles, doesn't look CMA enough.

Because he looks like a Karate guy imitating Kung Fu.

[Lamassu]

Because he looks like a Karate guy imitating Kung Fu.

In what way? What are the details that Master Grooms is lacking in order for his 360 sweep to look like a kung fu guy doing a kung fu move instead of a karate guy doing a kung fu move? And please give me more than merely the fact he's wearing a gi.

[Fu-Pow]

I haven't chimed in on this thread other than to say "Yeah Shaolin-Do suck" every couple years or so".....just to be a smart ass.

But one thing I'd like to point out having read the last couple pages of messages is that Shaolin-Do wouldn't have so many problems if it didn't emphasize forms so much.

One poster noted that if a technique works then why should we care if its CMA or JMA or MMA or whatever?

I totally agree and I'll take it one step further.....

Why are forms so important to SD at all? I think the forms are what get SD "in trouble" with other forms-based schools. The execution of the forms is more like JMA than CMA. Looking across other schools and styles its quite obvious.

But my point is....so what? The forms aren't that important anyways. SD, like any other style of CMA/JMA would do better by abandoning forms almost entirely and concentrating on conditioning, drills, competitive drills and competitive sparring formats.

Let it evolve into something new that's beyond national distinctions.

Do you see my point?

[Judge Pen]

Fu Pow,

That's a criticism that can be carried over to many styles like CLf, p. Mantis, BSL, wah lum etc. (styles with several forms). But as each would say, forms have a tradition in their style. It provides structure and an aestic that has value to the people that chose to participate in these styles.

I have a handful of forms that I focus on and the rest, I keep up well enough to stay current in my style and my rank in that style. To me the rank or the number of forms doesn't mean that much, really, but that's not the case with everyone.

The fact is people enjoy forms. I confess, I like weapon forms for the simple fact that they are cool to see a rack full of weapons and know a form with each that you can play around with. You don't have to do them to get into shape or to be a fighter, but if they keep people interested in the style and keep people in shape and improving their own selfs (for self-defense or whatever) then its a good thing.

[MasterKiller]

Fu-Pow,
You can keep your forms and still fight. I maintain my handsets at home and train MMA/submission wrestling/San Shou at class.

You don't have to throw the baby out with the bathwater, but if your practice time gets pressed, forms should be the first thing to go...

If you want to be a fighter, that is.

[Judge Pen]

Fu-Pow,
You can keep your forms and still fight. I maintain my handsets at home and train MMA/submission wrestling/San Shou at class.

You don't have to throw the baby out with the bathwater, but if your practice time gets pressed, forms should be the first thing to go...

If you want to be a fighter, that is.

You still keep up with your Monk's Spade as well?

[Chain Whip]

chi is not a parlor trick. There are some things that some sifus do which is not a real fair demonstration of chi--but trust me...it exists.

One, I don't trust you. Two, I never said chi didn't exist. I just said their demos were not demonstrations of chi. Simple basic physics explains all the tricks and most anyone could do the same things.

--

On another note the guy doing the Flexible Immortal is one of Master Grooms' students. The guy in form (Steve Wieck) is about 6'5" tall -- Master Grooms is about 5'8"

[Chain Whip]

The time spent in Indonesia seems to have changed the way your people execute Chinese forms, which is why people tell you it's not CMA, even though you can see CMA technqiues.

Maybe the time spent in Communist China especially during the Cultural Revolution changed the way your people execute Chinese forms. Which is why most CMA people look like dancers that can't hit worth a darn to us, even though you can see CMA technqiues.