Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Judge Pen]

Pretty much ignored it and went on to the next thing. It's funny that Bruce goes all over the world meeting with people in SD or not in SD and everyone seems to respect his skill and knowledge.

I've crossed hands with him, and I respect his skill.

[Chain Whip]

It is hard not to. He can really apply what he has learned. Sometimes Bruce does not get the credit he deserves because of his size.

[Leto]

I made a discovery that may be interesting for some

I've been looking over the copies of the handwritten notes than GM The passes out for forms. I dug up my notes from "pick and play fist", to try to decipher the handwritten characters in that title.

We had talked about how our pick and play fist was very similar if not the same as "Zhai Yao" in other mantis styles. Well, the character for "pick", which GM The spells "tze" is spelled "zhai" in pinyin romanization. and the character which he translated as "sua", or shua in pinyin, for play, is extremely close to the character for "yao", or "important, vital".

摘zhai (to borrow, to pick (flowers, fruit); to pluck, to take, to select)
要yao (important, vital, to want, to be going, must) /
耍 shua (play with, to juggle)

because of the way the handwritten character look, it could very easily be either one. and if GM The inherited them this way, handwritten, from his teacher...

This form very well may have originally been called "zhai yao" an "important selection" or summary of mantis techniques.

[sean_stonehart]

What is taught as "Pick & Play" is very similar to the 4th Zhai Yao routine.

[brucereiter]

Shoot, I would be embarrassed of any of my internal stuff aside from the Hsing Ie. Not that its that great, but its better than my pa kua or tai chi....

Nice finds on the quotes. I don't get over to empty flower very often, how did their attitude change after they found out he was SD?

for the most part people accept it for what it is. only a few people had a strong bias against.

[brucereiter]

Was not too impressed by Grooms he did not seem to apply the basic principles even with the placing of the feet and why was he doing a wrist lock takedown already on the ground ? any students of M Grooms out there ? KC

i am a student of sr master grooms.

[brucereiter]

We have seen Pa Kua and Tai Chi clips from Master Grooms and Bruce. Both from Atlanta. Can someone in KY post a Pa Kua and/or Tai Chi clip of Master Leonard or Master Price?

i posted myself to foster conversation and can only speak for myself. if others feel comfortable putting videos of their practice up it would be interesting to see. i do understand some are just not interested.

[Erasmus Mingatt]

Shaolin-Doiscool,

First...I will say this to you...as well as ALL SD students: Any MA which increases in its students a sense of self discipline, respect for oneself/others, balancing of emotions, respect for human life/dignity is..by the very nature of wanting to instill in its students, those qualities..honorable. And I applaud that...not because I am a sifu(I hope to one day however)..but as a human being.

Any critiques of SD I may offer are not related to the above. My criticisms have been based on factual innacuracies. If a historian wrote a book entitled : "World War 1: from 1974-1984"....well..lets just say that most people unless they were under the influence of hallucinogens would say "uh..back up there buddy..WW1 happened before those years"

"thanks for taking the time to reply. i do not mind someone respectfully disagreeing with me and often times debate leads to mutual benefit."

I agree and I also acknowledge that I've been overtly defensive at times..but not because I think SD is the worst art one could study(that honor..may very well belong to "Temple Kungfu")..but I prefer to not have a revisionist history in any area of life..not just kung fu. So when SKT says that he was the "only person ever to have 2 tablets " in honor of him by Shaolin..I just think "aaahh..yeah..and the point is? 2 tablets in honor of what I might add?"


"for example you say: <<Even the fastest style of tai-chi is still ALOT slower than most external arts. If you do Yang style tai chi at Choy Li Fut speed..you have missed the point.>>

how do you figure that to be true? take fair lady works shuttles as the yang tai chi chuan example and what ever external method is a similar block/punch type of movement."



Yes..but you see you are placing emphasis on the MOVEMENT rather than the concept. It is the concept that is key. One could even make the argument that you could take movements from ANY PATTERN of a form of ANY of the kung fu styles known for their external force(I would even include my current style of 8 step preying mantis) and if you slowed it down and modified the intent/breathing/generation of force/mind intent..I could almost create my own form of tai-chi...

"are you implying that a "tai chi" person should apply the movement slower than as you said a choy li fut person? (i might be misunderstanding you)"

Absolutely!!!!

"i think speed is important to all martial arts.

delivering the max mass at the highest rate ... ... ..."



I will defer to Bruce Lee himself when he gave an interview on DVD when he compared the force felt between a "Karate punch" versus a "Kung fu punch". I would enthusuatically recommend picking up a copy..


"are you implying that i do not practice yang tai chi chuan? i say that i do"

I don't study Yang Tai-Chi so I can't say w/ authority. Ask a YTC master/sifu.

[Judge Pen]

but you see you are placing emphasis on the MOVEMENT rather than the concept. It is the concept that is key. One could even make the argument that you could take movements from ANY PATTERN of a form of ANY of the kung fu styles known for their external force(I would even include my current style of 8 step preying mantis) and if you slowed it down and modified the intent/breathing/generation of force/mind intent..I could almost create my own form of tai-chi...

"are you implying that a "tai chi" person should apply the movement slower than as you said a choy li fut person? (i might be misunderstanding you)"

Absolutely!!!!

"i think speed is important to all martial arts.

delivering the max mass at the highest rate ... ... ..."



I will defer to Bruce Lee himself when he gave an interview on DVD when he compared the force felt between a "Karate punch" versus a "Kung fu punch". I would enthusuatically recommend picking up a copy..


"are you implying that i do not practice yang tai chi chuan? i say that i do"

I don't study Yang Tai-Chi so I can't say w/ authority. Ask a YTC master/sifu.

I agree with this concept. I suspect that, based on their applications, so would Master Grooms (the subject of much of this discussion) or my teachers who are not gentle or slow when they teach their applications to tai chi.

Now its an oversimplification to say you can create a tai chi form by slowing down any form or movement to tai chi speed (there's a lot more going on internally than just slowing down the movement to concentrate on the body mechanics behind the movement) but assuming that you observe the tai chi principles of structure and chi cultivation, then I suppose that you would be correct in a sense.

[Erasmus Mingatt]

"or my teachers who are not gentle"

There is this misnomer that just because TC is gentle to the touch that it is somehow not powerful. Power can be manifested in many ways.




"or slow when they teach their applications to tai chi."

Certain styles of TC are faster or slower than others..it depends on the family. It is also a misnomer that(not that I'm saying you are saying this Judge Pen) TC is merely just a health based exercise..in actuality...I would never want to fight a tai chi master..it's just too diverse and unpredictable a fighting art. Like trying to grab "water...

""Now its an oversimplification to say you can create a tai chi form by slowing down"


One could slow something down to where it takes 1 hour to do one complete arm movement and STILL not cultivate any chi...

"any form or movement to tai chi speed (there's a lot more going on internally than just slowing down the movement to concentrate on the body mechanics behind the movement)"


However..and this is not a contractiction to my above statement per se..but there is a certain axiomatic tendency to expend more force and deplete more chi as one goes faster...and faster..


"but assuming that you observe the tai chi principles of structure and chi cultivation, then I suppose that you would be correct in a sense."

If you take the concept of Dim Mak and reverse it insofar as taking the acupuncture meridians..one could take the opinion that Dim Mak is reversing the intent of circulating the chi for health promotion. In actuality..the damage inflicted by a master who truly understands the genesis of internal energy would be far more longer lasting than the Karate sensei who would try to shatter your spine to bits with one blow.(insofar as long term organ damage, disruption of consciousness,etc.)

[brucereiter]

erasmus e,

should a tai chi chuan person be fast and powerful?

[Judge Pen]

EM

I think we are in agreement. Tai chi is a devastating fighting art first and formost. Its techniques are fluid and can be yielding when appropriate, but they are not applied in a slow manner like Yang tai chi. They are fast and powerful when the time comes.

[arinathos.valin]

Shaolin-Doiscool,

First...I will say this to you...as well as ALL SD students: Any MA which increases in its students a sense of self discipline, respect for oneself/others, balancing of emotions, respect for human life/dignity is..by the very nature of wanting to instill in its students, those qualities..honorable. And I applaud that...not because I am a sifu(I hope to one day however)..but as a human being.

Any critiques of SD I may offer are not related to the above. My criticisms have been based on factual innacuracies. If a historian wrote a book entitled : "World War 1: from 1974-1984"....well..lets just say that most people unless they were under the influence of hallucinogens would say "uh..back up there buddy..WW1 happened before those years"

"thanks for taking the time to reply. i do not mind someone respectfully disagreeing with me and often times debate leads to mutual benefit."

I agree and I also acknowledge that I've been overtly defensive at times..but not because I think SD is the worst art one could study(that honor..may very well belong to "Temple Kungfu")..but I prefer to not have a revisionist history in any area of life..not just kung fu. So when SKT says that he was the "only person ever to have 2 tablets " in honor of him by Shaolin..I just think "aaahh..yeah..and the point is? 2 tablets in honor of what I might add?"

I think that was very well put, Erasmus.

[brucereiter]

Just a slip though i would expect more of a televised/computerized demo BY A Senior Master. I feel there is too much liberty with form. KC

do you have a video example of how you feel pakua should look?

what liberties do you feel were taken?

i have visited sd several schools in ky, tn, co, idaho, texas and of coarse atlanta and each person who i have seen teaching it and practicing it have done it very differently even within the same school. are they taking liberties?

[Mas Judt]

I think you will find that even in the non-SD oriented schools...