View Poll Results: What to do about the 'Is Shaolin-Do for real?' thread

Voters
57. You may not vote on this poll
  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Merge all S-D threads together so it clears 1000 posts!

    22 38.60%
  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Let all the S-D threads stand independently.

    13 22.81%
  • Keep IS-Dfr locked down. All IS-Dfr posters deserved to be punished.

    5 8.77%
  • Delete them all. Let Yama sort them out.

    17 29.82%
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Thread: Is Shaolin-Do for real?

  1. #6226
    cjurakpt Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by kwaichang View Post
    Hey PT some people do change the forms and the intro etc. that does not make the whole system wrong just that person. Some like Bobath some dont but the rehab works . KC
    you know, the way you seem to really luv addressing me by those initials after my name - I'm guessing you've met one or two PT's in your life that rubbed you the wrong way (get it? get it?), hmmm?

    and hey, as for changing forms - I say go for it - do it up! but what is informing those changes? c'mon, be honest...

    Bobath? what's that?
    Last edited by cjurakpt; 07-23-2007 at 07:51 AM.

  2. #6227
    cjurakpt Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Tiger View Post
    I will not apologize.
    well that's a relief...BTW, what is it that you aren't sorry about?

    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Tiger View Post
    The two finger salute (as aposed to the one finger salute that I usually am know for) is called "immortal points the way" and while generally seen only in jian forms, is present in the opening of the Green Dragon Broadsword form.
    actually, classically the move "Immortal Points the Way" involves a bit more than just pointing with the fingers...for example, the direction in which you point is kinda important; also, pointing the way to what?...
    and also, so according to you it is present in the opening - looks like you and your training brother have some disagreement over that...
    Originally Posted by tattooedmonk:
    Look ,I just said what I believe it to be . He may have learned it like that, but I did not . I learned it from GMS and was right next to him for the whole seminar.

    so, which is correct? or is it the custum of SD to play fast and loose with the "original" and "authentic" style it is passing down?

    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Tiger View Post
    While it is used as a balance to the jian in "tai chi sword forms" as you say, it is merely used in this one as an opening move.
    so, if it's "merely" used as an opening, what is the reason it was used as an opening? lemme guess - it looks nice...
    look, if you want to switch things around, go ahead - go Pollock on the whole system if you want - but spare us the paens about authenticity and traditional Shaolin being taught

    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Tiger View Post
    As KC stated, this is several different parts of different forms spliced together.
    ummm - yeah, I think I got that...

    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Tiger View Post
    See, this is another case of commenting on something inwhich you know absolutely nothing about. How about you learn the forms first, then make an "informed "decision.......
    it seems like there are so many different versions of the forms going around that even you guys can't agree on what's what, so which versions would I have to learn? as for knowing nothing about it - well, after studying TCMA for the last 20+ years with various teachers actually from China, I think I have a little bit of an informed perspective on TCMA...but that's ok, you don't have to believe me...

  3. #6228
    cjurakpt Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by DPL View Post
    Wow, you guys just never quit with the attacks.
    well, there's just so much material to cover...

  4. #6229
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    Quote Originally Posted by Judge Pen View Post
    Not from prior posts etc. I thought he was respectful in his disagreement especially considering the personal nature of the comments back then. Now its just the same old merry-go-round of SD arguments. No one was attacking John or discussing him until he came back on here.

    Shoot, as much as we've discussed these topics, we should be on autopilot by now.
    John Dufresne???
    Hey JP, from what I know of John....this is not him.......he's much more respectful........it has to be some troll, trying to stir up more sh!t....these post made no since at all.
    BQ

  5. #6230
    Quote Originally Posted by BM2 View Post
    It is my opinion that the stone is in honor of the ones who purchased it (Soards). For those of have seen it, what is your opinion?
    It is unquestionably to honor the Soards as is the marker in Putian. GMT is almost an after thought. The marker at Chen Village honors GMT - paid for by the students on the 1998 trip.

  6. #6231
    Quote Originally Posted by Mas Judt View Post
    I would love to referee a match between a modern Wushu coach from China and an SD master. I'd be happy to arrange it and video it.

    I think you will be very surprised with the result. Just because a good chunk of the training has been modified for performance, it does not mean they are with skill. And thier material is much more in line with CMA principle than Shaolin Do.

    now, put that Kool Aid down...
    Let's say we do this

    If the SD Master lost you (and others) would cite it as "proof" that we are "fake" or whatever.

    If the SD Master won you would not have the opposite reaction. So, what value would there be in doing it? Unless everyone promised to say an SD victory would be the ultimate proof of our validity.

    Can we pick any modern wushu coach and can we use any SD Master we wish?

  7. #6232
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chain Whip View Post
    Let's say we do this

    If the SD Master lost you (and others) would cite it as "proof" that we are "fake" or whatever.

    If the SD Master won you would not have the opposite reaction. So, what value would there be in doing it? Unless everyone promised to say an SD victory would be the ultimate proof of our validity.

    Can we pick any modern wushu coach and can we use any SD Master we wish?

    This type of ancedotal evidence is unreliable as so much will depend on the individual. I know people who have told me that they sparred an SD black belt and they were bad, displayed no power or root etc. and all I can say is oh, well I hope that I'm better. I've also heard people say that they've seen an SD black sash fight and that, whatever you say about the history, that student could fight well. Ok, great. Good for the student and his teachers.

    Truth is, none of it means much outside of the motivation, skill and will of the two individuals at that precise moment in time. All other things equal, the validity of an art and its training methods should make a difference, but the other intangibles will always get in the way.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  8. #6233
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    JP,
    I am offering the match in respone to comments about the superiority compared to Modern Wushu. which demonstrates a deep misunderstanding of who is actually out there and included under that label - guys like Liang shouyu, Pan qing fu or Li tai liang - guys with real skills.

    It would be an illuminating experience for SD, as it would not really be a fight. Trust me on this.
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  9. #6234
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    PT and Mas

    Hey PT that is what you are right ? You are a PT and dont know the Bobath approach to Spasticity with Stroke TBI pt. ??? OK I guess you know as much about SD. And Mas there are good fighters in SD just like there are good ones else where put the best Wu Shu guy against the worst SD guy and he would lose take your pick on which one that would be . And as far as the form it is not the Immortal points the Way it is a Dragon Hand as the form is Green Dragon Broadsword not Tai Chi Broad Sword or Jian. KC
    A Fool is Born every Day !

  10. #6235
    cjurakpt Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by kwaichang View Post
    Hey PT that is what you are right ? You are a PT and dont know the Bobath approach to Spasticity with Stroke TBI pt. ???
    me PT, but not know Bobath - brain hurts when think about it

    boy, I'll bet you were all a-twitter thinking that I didn't know it (BTW, I was trained in NDT by Lois Bly - you can ask your PT friends who she is)

    you know, we can throw out lots of other PT "must know" names: Kendal, Voss, Mitchell, Maitland; the list goes on...and what?

    Quote Originally Posted by kwaichang View Post
    OK I guess you know as much about SD.
    actually, I know more than I really want to at this point...but that's ok, I'm done arguing pointlessly with you, well, whoever you are (I'd refer to you by professional initials, but I'm not sure what it is that you actually do...)

    Quote Originally Posted by kwaichang View Post
    And as far as the form it is not the Immortal points the Way it is a Dragon Hand as the form is Green Dragon Broadsword not Tai Chi Broad Sword or Jian. KC
    looks like you and your training brother Golden Tiger have some discussing to do on that - man, somebody better have a chat with the folks at SD Quality Assurance...
    btw, what does the Green Dragon symbolize, just for kicks?
    Last edited by cjurakpt; 07-23-2007 at 02:18 PM.

  11. #6236
    Quote Originally Posted by Chain Whip View Post
    It is unquestionably to honor the Soards as is the marker in Putian. GMT is almost an after thought.
    I have to agree with this.They paid for it themselves.

    They did because they thought it would add credibilty to what they study and teach.

    Just like the USSD people.

  12. #6237
    Quote Originally Posted by cjurakpt View Post
    ok, so you learned it differently - seems to be a lot of variation going on then (see below)...


    again, it always seems to be what is publically available that falls under those categories - interesting coincdence...
    seems to be a lot of "creative expression" being encourraged - hey, fine - but is that still "authentic" and "original"? but I can understand why its encouraged, considering there was probably a lot of that at the source...


    I don't care about "pretty" - that's not my point at all - you can do a form "badly" but the intrinsic elements can still be intact...but if they're not there, it doesn't matter how you do it...


    when i see some, I'll say it


    since I never claimed to be a master of anything, I don't have to worry about living up to some sort of idealized criteria of great equanimity


    apparantly disproportionately so in the world of SD; but then again, some people think that JFS won against Osiris...
    #1 Yes there is.

    #2 I believe it is because any of the masters do not care about what people think either way.

    #3 Authentic and original forms have been changed and altered by masters in every style to suit their needs , why should SD be any differen? The forms are taught , for the most part , consistently the same way in most of the schools.

    #4 So what do see as being the most intrinsic aspects of the forms and /or pieces of the forms that you have seen that are missing from what you have seen in SD ??


    #5 So you have seen nothing that was good in SD what so ever?? Material or otherwise.

    #6 So what makes you so qualified then to say one way or another as to what is correct or incorrect about what it is that SD does.

    I mean it is easy to say from behind a computer, looking at a two dimensional video of forms to say" yeah they do not have this and this is not right, etc. But is it possible that looks my be deceiving ,that if you tried to test your beliefs against any of these people, that the you might be wrong??

  13. #6238
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    PT and Mas

    My fupa PT I am sure you are Out pt, as I was for 11 years. I follow other precepts not a big fan of Maitland, I like Paris and Myo - Fascial met tech , Structural to Soft tissue. mobs. Strain counter strain and Corley / Kelsey tendon cond and Un-loading principles. So having said that what do i do for work. Likewise as you were not familiar with Bobath you may not be familiar with all the nuances of SD. as far as Dragon hand etc I am basing this on my DVD of the form by GMT it looks like a DRagon Hand not Immortal hand. I will look at the notes to be sure/. Mas who do you know in Wu Shu that you could set up a match with and what is their weight class ?? Just Curious. KC
    A Fool is Born every Day !

  14. #6239
    Quote Originally Posted by Mas Judt View Post
    JP,
    I am offering the match in respone to comments about the superiority compared to Modern Wushu. which demonstrates a deep misunderstanding of who is actually out there and included under that label - guys like Liang shouyu, Pan qing fu or Li tai liang - guys with real skills.

    It would be an illuminating experience for SD, as it would not really be a fight. Trust me on this.
    So, answer the question.

    Can we pick any modern wushu coach and can we use any SD Master we wish?

  15. #6240
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mas Judt View Post
    JP,
    I am offering the match in respone to comments about the superiority compared to Modern Wushu. which demonstrates a deep misunderstanding of who is actually out there and included under that label - guys like Liang shouyu, Pan qing fu or Li tai liang - guys with real skills.

    It would be an illuminating experience for SD, as it would not really be a fight. Trust me on this.

    Sorry, I don't trust you on this, although I for one have never said that a wu shu person couldn't fight...if they train to. Their atleticism alone means they would be formidable if they have any will and intent and I think that there remains some marital intent in wu shu... it just doesn't have the intent that it did prior to the standardization and competition elements.

    Pan qing fu is one of my favorites: "you must first hit with your eyes and then your heart; your hands will follow."

    I stand by my statement that its more of an idividual element as opposed to a style vs. style.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

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