Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Mas Judt]

JP my man, you are a good guy and a true barrister... the truth of things in the Kuntao world is often never worth worrying about for reasons long explained - but the key point here is that Sin The' is actively marketing his art with statements his own followers claim not to believe.... claims that 'steal' equity from existing methods with claims of being the original and authentic version... while the original and authentic versions still exist and look nothing like SD.... it is a moral quandry.... more than just a fanciful history...


KC - I'll see what I can do - I might even have the heavyweight, he's a local Wushu teacher who has trained in China. I'm going to see if there will be a CSC tournament this year - that way we can have our fun within a context we can mutually control (I've got some weight there) and it will look like just another part of the event rather than a 'big challenge'. I'll need your help coordinating as my time is limited...

[DPL]

So you think forms have NOTHING to do with fighting or how to learn how to fight??

minimal to not at all

Let me get this straight. You (cjurakpt) and others have spent an ungodly amount of thread space lecturing SD people about how their forms aren't true CMA, don't have the right flavor, etc., etc. and you don't even think forms matter when learning to fight?

WTF, dude? What in the h3ll does it matter then? If no one practicing forms regularly is providing themselves any significant martial benefit, regardless of the 'flavor' of the forms they're doing, why all the emotion and energy?

If forms are all worthless as a way to learn to fight (which, last time I checked, is one of the main purposes of most martial arts), then what does it matter if my forms look a little more 'karate-like' or 'kempo-like' than yours?

You guys are like a bunch of little old church ladies, gossiping about the sins of all the other women in church while blissfully ignoring your own faults, and you've decided Shaolin-Do is the church wh0re.

But make sure you forget about all the little indiscretions in your past (or the past of your art) while you're lecturing the wh0re about her behavior, right?

[Shaolin Wookie]

This is where the ethics come in. How can you sleep at night if you support and rrepeat these falsehoods? This is more than just a fanciful history - in Chinese culture you often find an innovation attributed to an ancestor. But claims to be something else that already exists is still fraud, even within that context.

Where are your ethics?

Hahahaha.....I enjoy his martial system more than the other Chinese systems I tried. I don't care what stories he wants to tell. I want to learn Drunken Boxing, and I might be willing to kill just to do so. Luckily, I only have to dedicate some time to his martial art. haha......

BTW, there aren't really any other Grandmasters of Shaolin, are there? There's monks, abbots....not really any grandmasters, eh?

[Mas Judt]

Shaolin Wookie, you made me snort coffee out my nose. THAT was really funny.

[Shaolin Wookie]

JP my man, you are a good guy and a true barrister... the truth of things in the Kuntao world is often never worth worrying about for reasons long explained - but the key point here is that Sin The' is actively marketing his art with statements his own followers claim not to believe.... claims that 'steal' equity from existing methods with claims of being the original and authentic version... while the original and authentic versions still exist and look nothing like SD.... it is a moral quandry.... more than just a fanciful history...


KC - I'll see what I can do - I might even have the heavyweight, he's a local Wushu teacher who has trained in China. I'm going to see if there will be a CSC tournament this year - that way we can have our fun within a context we can mutually control (I've got some weight there) and it will look like just another part of the event rather than a 'big challenge'. I'll need your help coordinating as my time is limited...

BTW, if you want to keep plugging a match between a wushu player and an SD player, I'd be willing to help. I've got a friend at the Longfist school I used to go to named Richie who's been doing contemporary Wushu and traditional Shaolin Ch'uan for something like 6 years. I've been doing SD for about 2 or so, maybe a little more. We've sparred a couple of times (outside of class--as his teacher wouldn't allow sparring at the school he taught out of privately [wasn't his school]), and I completely decimated him. Last time I accidentally unleashed an elbow (we'd agreed to controlled contact, b/c I outweight him, and he's a skinny wushu guy), and he said he didn't want to spar anymore. I find your proposition amusing.

BTW, he tried teaching me some Emei snake (he's excellent at forms, etc.), but I gave up on that. I don't think I had the bendability for it. Can't do wushu to save my life. hahah.....

[Mas Judt]

Heh, I don't think you understand what I am talking about when I refer to wushu....

[Chain Whip]

Let me get this straight. You (cjurakpt) and others have spent an ungodly amount of thread space lecturing SD people about how their forms aren't true CMA, don't have the right flavor, etc., etc. and you don't even think forms matter when learning to fight?

WTF, dude? What in the h3ll does it matter then? If no one practicing forms regularly is providing themselves any significant martial benefit, regardless of the 'flavor' of the forms they're doing, why all the emotion and energy?

If forms are all worthless as a way to learn to fight (which, last time I checked, is one of the main purposes of most martial arts), then what does it matter if my forms look a little more 'karate-like' or 'kempo-like' than yours?

You guys are like a bunch of little old church ladies, gossiping about the sins of all the other women in church while blissfully ignoring your own faults, and you've decided Shaolin-Do is the church wh0re.

But make sure you forget about all the little indiscretions in your past (or the past of your art) while you're lecturing the wh0re about her behavior, right?

Well put. This outlook on forms explains the entire problem. I have asked twice whether anyone actually believed that warriors trained like we see in the "accepted" TCMA forms and no one has said "Sure, they put on the silk jammies and danced around and then went out and killed 10 guys" To say that a form is traditional martial arts - but lacks martial effectiveness makes no sense. When cjurakpt says

they do not appear to be that martially oriented - but I don't think that the intent is to be martial,

This explains our entire issue with what many of you call TCMA - we think martial arts HAS to be martially oriented - and the intent IS to be martial. Hence the confusion. the "accepted" TCMA guys can't find the connection from forms to fighting - which is to be expected when you do the forms like a dancer. SD people are taught to make the connection between forms and fighting. How can you claim to be "traditional" and do non-martially oriented forms?

[Shaolin Wookie]

Contemporary wushu, right? Or perhaps traditional wushu? Richie studies them both. He's primarily the former, because he's a performer. He admits it, so I'm not bashing him when he says---he can't fight worth a lick. But he's one hell of a performer--better in his 6 years than I'll probably ever be.

BTW....as I'm sure anyone who's ever seen me fight can assure you, I'm no master of fighting. But I can pack a hell of a punch and kick.

[Mas Judt]

This explains our entire issue with what many of you call TCMA - we think martial arts HAS to be martially oriented - and the intent IS to be martial. Hence the confusion. the "accepted" TCMA guys can't find the connection from forms to fighting - which is to be expected when you do the forms like a dancer. SD people are taught to make the connection between forms and fighting. How can you claim to be "traditional" and do non-martially oriented forms?

Wrong. Look, there are a lot of 'kung fu' schools that suck - are not doing the real thing. BUT - the problems with SD, besides the veracity and outright lying on the part of your founder, is that you claim to teach things you don't really 'have.' Just like a modern wushu Taolu player does not 'really have' it. Actual CMA is very systematic - but only recently have the doors opened enough for most to see this.

As far as forms - the reliance on them is a fairly recent innovation. Forms training started as either: Shen fa training, shadow boxing moves, then putting them together as a pre-literate syllabus, then as a way to keep outdoor students busy. Forms are merely part of the equation, and historically, not the most important one. But you should know that right? Your doing things the 'old way' right? With THE GRANDMASTER!!!!! Whoeee, that's snappy for you.

But I shan't talk too much, don't want you 'discovering the things already in your art, just not taught out yet.'

[Mas Judt]

Clarify - say a modern wushu guy doing Xing-yi. They do look a hellava lot better than SD, despite their performance based errors... but learning a form or two does not mean you 'have the style.' far from it. Even worse when you only have a gross imitation.

Now, there is great variety out there, but there are some things that are constant within different schools... why are they not in SD?

[Golden Tiger]

Mas, you have become very bitter in your old age. True, you have always enjoyed throwing around your smack to the delight of your minions, but lately, it seems you have become down right angry. Trouble at home? You little monkey slap not working like it used to? It has to be something cause SD is the same as it always has been.


If you ever need to talk, just vent a little, I am here for ya man....

[cjurakpt]

Let me get this straight. You (cjurakpt) and others have spent an ungodly amount of thread space lecturing SD people about how their forms aren't true CMA, don't have the right flavor, etc., etc. and you don't even think forms matter when learning to fight?

eh-yup! maddening, ain't it?

WTF, dude? What in the h3ll does it matter then? If no one practicing forms regularly is providing themselves any significant martial benefit, regardless of the 'flavor' of the forms they're doing, why all the emotion and energy?

GREAT question...see below for "answer"

If forms are all worthless as a way to learn to fight (which, last time I checked, is one of the main purposes of most martial arts), then what does it matter if my forms look a little more 'karate-like' or 'kempo-like' than yours?

not a darn whit...

You guys are like a bunch of little old church ladies, gossiping about the sins of all the other women in church while blissfully ignoring your own faults, and you've decided Shaolin-Do is the church wh0re.

nice analogy - seems to be some sort of recurring relgious theme to your post (BTW, welcome to the parish - 4th pew on the right is free...)

But make sure you forget about all the little indiscretions in your past (or the past of your art) while you're lecturing the wh0re about her behavior, right?

I will be the first to admit that my practiced "styles" are full of so-called indiscretions (I mean, Choih Lei Faht and Taiji - rife with "creative license" - but not so much that they constitute whole-sale fabrications...)

anyway, I'm glad finally that someone got around to "decoding" the whole sub-text of my exegesis;

see, here it is: Sin The has gone a long way, in my estimation, to make a big deal out of the "authenticity" of the forms he teaches, confabulating a particularly outré story-line, starting with Jo-jo the Boy Wonder Dog all the way down to him, the Grand Pre-eminent High Muckaty-muck of Shaolin - spending a lot of "emotion & energy" to validate the authenticity of the forms that are taught; now, based on comparison to other easily identifiable and verifiable Shaolin-based arts, it seems to look a little different, to say the least; well, say the faithful-followers, of course it looks different, because we are actually generating power, etc., etc. and so we can therefore fight better - but the kicker is, none of it actually has any bearing on fighting to begin with - so, ST is propagating a readily debunkable bamboozlement, for absolutely no practical reason in terms of martial skill in the first place! it's indignity heaped upon indignity! I mean, it's bad enough that most people who practice "authentic" TCMA can't fight worth sh!t - now you have people practicing some thrice removed derrivative that they think is the real-deal, and justifying the way they do it as if that is going to have any impact on their ability to fight! (not that SD guys can't fight necessarilly - but if they can, it's got nothing to do with the forms they practice, sorry to say...)

anyway, I think I'm done here, made my contribution to reaching the magic "500" (remember when we were talking about that, some pages back?) - glad someone finally figured out the inherent preposterousness of it all - feel free to flame away at your collective leisure...

[Chain Whip]

Chain Whip

This explains our entire issue with what many of you call TCMA - we think martial arts HAS to be martially oriented - and the intent IS to be martial. Hence the confusion. the "accepted" TCMA guys can't find the connection from forms to fighting - which is to be expected when you do the forms like a dancer. SD people are taught to make the connection between forms and fighting. How can you claim to be "traditional" and do non-martially oriented forms?

Mas Judt

Wrong. Look, there are a lot of 'kung fu' schools that suck - are not doing the real thing. BUT - the problems with SD, besides the veracity .....

.....

Normally if one starts a reply with "Wrong" you would proceed to explain what was wrong with the statement. Seeing that you didn't address my point at all I'm left with the conclusion you disagree with my position and firmly believe that traditional forms do NOT have to be martial in content. If this is the case then you need to start being honest and leave the word "martial" out of the conversation regarding "traditional martial arts." Call it whatever you want but it isn't ethical to say this a martial arts form - but it it has no martial content.

Can you answer a simple question - yes or no will be fine. Do you believe that old Chinese warriors preparing for warfare trained like we see in this clip that was recently provided as an example of "Traditional Chinese Martial Arts?" http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...85909503964460

[Mas Judt]

Ah, when unable to respond to a question, resort to personal attacks. Funny how character shows in the actions.

These are simple questions. They are very disturbing, yet very few confront them head on.

Sin The' is obviously lieing - he is claiming the stelle was specially to honor him - not a paid tribute to the temple as such stelle's are. He claims to be THE GRANDMASTER of Shaolin, which is a funny thing to claim.

It is a real moral question. Perhaps the most important question.

[Mas Judt]

Chain Whip,
I'd ask you to read the rest of the paragraph. If I was not clear enough - your buddies school is not representative of good CMA. There is a LOT of charlatan out there besides your GRANDMASTER OF SHAOLIN. So don't feel bad. They even use many of the same rationalizations.

Honestly, if you REALLY believe what you are saying, it is too late for you, and no real point in trying to use reason.

At this point we have reached the OYD stage. While I don't think you guys s@ck as much as them (there is some kinda hybrid thingy beneath all the badly understood forms), you wouldn't know CMA if it bit you on the @ss, and you willingly follow the BS stories of your teacher - this is no different than OYD and their legend of 'BAGWAAAAA.'

If you knowingly pass on a lie... not just a fable about the style, but a lie used to sell new students on your school, what kind of person are you?