Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Shaolin Wookie]

I really think the lyrics for the forms could help out some students. For instance, there's a move in the double daggers called "Giant Tiger Embraces his heart" where you execute a clockwise circling block overhead (with right hand dagger) while stepping from a kneeling jade ring into a left bow stance, as the left hand performs a kind of smaller circle almost at the same time.........

I had a basic understanding of the movement (like all newbs with a knife, I just wanted to jump around in circles, slashing like a crackhead mofo), but I never really considered it much of a "complete technique/sequence in itself" until I examined the name and thought about it. I'm thinking: ducking low (bobbing in evasion), coming up with a slash to the belly or flanks with the right hand dagger, using the left arm and dagger to slash under the opponent's left arm and pushing it up/to my left so I can get behind, so that when the right hand swings back around (where it chambers under the left armpit in the form) it stabs into the stomach. The left hand is in position for a chokehold/throat slash, as I am now positioned behind the guy. And then, moving into the "Dove flips over Mountain" movement, using your weight to rip a gash across the stomach for gutting as you jump and change directions/get some distance from the opponent. (It's kind of like weapons grappling).

The "embrace" part of the lyric got me thinking of a hug, which is the motion of the arm control and positioning, and stabbing to the gut or up under the ribcage, where you will eventually stab with the right hand, trying to get at the heart.

For the first year I've had it, I was always thinking simplistically, like slashing with the right across the gut, then stabbing into the ribcage as the right hand came back around, or slashing across the chest (which causes problems with the icepick grip, ya know?)

[Shaolin Wookie]

Examining your forms this way, you realize what a sick, sadistic ******* you have to be to feel such joy in discovering ways to kill someone effectively. All I know is that technique would be bloody, and quick. And you'd get all kinds of nasty stuff on your brand new shoes.

[bodhi warrior]

Back in the day the 3 brownbelt shaolin bird katas were called "original" shaolin bird katas. My instructor told me that they were created by GMS to add some material to the brown belt level. My question is why would he need to create 3 new forms instead of using one of the 900 he already knows?

[Shaolin Wookie]

Back in the day the 3 brownbelt shaolin bird katas were called "original" shaolin bird katas. My instructor told me that they were created by GMS to add some material to the brown belt level. My question is why would he need to create 3 new forms instead of using one of the 900 he already knows?

I'll have to be sure to thank him when I see him. Those are my favorite empty-hand forms (but far from my best).

[bodhi warrior]

I personally like those forms as well. I particularly like the circle blocking and the elbow chop.

[Lamassu]

Back in the day the 3 brownbelt shaolin bird katas were called "original" shaolin bird katas. My instructor told me that they were created by GMS to add some material to the brown belt level. My question is why would he need to create 3 new forms instead of using one of the 900 he already knows?

Something you have to keep in mind with the whole 900 forms claim, is that they include the more recent forms that GMS has made in order to instruct newer students here in the States. GM Su Kong never had these bird forms in his cirriculum, but then again the methodology of teaching new students back then was way different. Back in the day, a new student's class would focus mostly on stance training circuit drills with kicks, punches and blocks and strength training, and for the first few years of training you would only have a couple of forms under your belt. This type of training isn't very profitable here in the United States, however, and in order to keep students training, GMS would have to make accomedations to satifsy our American desire for instant gratification, and make up and teach out these very short and simplistic forms to keep our intrest.

I won't say Fei Hu Chu Tung, is a useless form, but it's way too short to be a proper Shaolin form from the late 19th century - early 20th century. But it's still a mountain tiger form, where simplistic elements were mixed and matched and created to make a simple form that would intrigue us and keep us motivated, while still imbibing the spirit of the mountain tiger style.

I remember Master Schaefer telling me this a few years back when I earned my 1st degree Black Belt, that GMS doesn't even consider you one of his students until you get your 1st degree BB. Not because he's trying to be snotty, but simply because the forms, styles and techniques get more complex, harder and deadlier once you learn all the basics, which encompass your entire training regime from white belt to 1st degree brown. So think of all those colored belt levels you've trained for and see them for what they are: basic training.

[Ngfamilymember]

900 forms???? Surely you can't be serious!?

Thanks,
-Ngfamilymember

[Daniel09]

I feel so left out. There are tons of different schools and I haven't the capability to go to any of them.

[bodhi warrior]

Speaking of fe hu chu tung, did anyone ever figure out how the guy on fight science came across this form. I mean was he a SD student at one time?

[arinathos.valin]

Hi all...

Go away for a couple of days and look and how much you miss...

A few things to comment on from the voluminous amount of posts.

1) I'm not necessarily so concerned at how different schools in SD have different variations. I think it's natural when people transmit something as subjective as a martial arts form that one changes the form in subtle ways to suit your own strengths. I've been reviewing forms from Gerald Sharp and Luo JinHua, both of whom have a direct lineage to Jiang Rong Jiao, the creator of the Bagua form in SD. Although the moves are very similar, they both do the forms slightly differently. Likewise, I've also been looking at Ted Mancuso's version of Jiang Bagua... a student of Adam Hsu. They all have some subtle differences in stance, hand placement, and transitions between moves. However, they also have some similarities in underlying principles that I just did not see in M. Groom's demo video.

2) The video of Cheng Man Ching doing the form should indeed have similarities with what SD students do.... it's his form! SD's longest Yang style form is the Cheng distillation of the Yang 108 move form, and the lineage is indisputable. The Yang forms of SD aren't "temple" derivatives.

3) I'm not going to be so quick to dismiss the criticisms of inaccuracies by Mas and others. I think that half of the critics on this board wouldn't be here if SD was billed as a separate 'hybrid art' with a Shaolin flavor. No one rags on kempo, because it doesn't claim to be the sole lineage holder from its Chinese/Japanese roots. Likewise, no one rags on To Shin Do for its ninjitsu lineage because Stephen Hayes doesn't claim that it is the sole lineage art for Togakure Ryu Ninjitsu (whether Togakure Ryu Ninjitsu is the real deal or whether ninjitsu is an effective art is another question). If GMT does make the claim that he is the sole Shaolin Grandmaster and it is a false assertion, then it does raise the issue of his credibility.

I don't think there is any question that SD can teach people to fight, and that there are people in SD that have reached a high level of skill. If one is fully aware of the controversy regarding GMT's claims and thinks that the school offers what they are looking for, then so be it!

[Judge Pen]

Speaking of fe hu chu tung, did anyone ever figure out how the guy on fight science came across this form. I mean was he a SD student at one time?

No, but he learned from a student of winglock ng. Now how did they get our forms...?

[Judge Pen]

I don't think there is any question that SD can teach people to fight, and that there are people in SD that have reached a high level of skill. If one is fully aware of the controversy regarding GMT's claims and thinks that the school offers what they are looking for, then so be it!

Thanks.

[Mas Judt]

Care to elaborate, Judge? We've got a ways to go to set the post record....

[arinathos.valin]

BTW... had a decent amount of success tracking down the lineage of the "Classical" Bagua form from SD, but I can't seem to find where the "Animal" Bagua form came from. Anyone out there have the answer?

[bodhi warrior]

I haven't had that one, but isn't it sun lu tang's eight animal Pakua?