View Poll Results: What to do about the 'Is Shaolin-Do for real?' thread

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  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Merge all S-D threads together so it clears 1000 posts!

    22 38.60%
  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Let all the S-D threads stand independently.

    13 22.81%
  • Keep IS-Dfr locked down. All IS-Dfr posters deserved to be punished.

    5 8.77%
  • Delete them all. Let Yama sort them out.

    17 29.82%
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Thread: Is Shaolin-Do for real?

  1. #6391

    Lmao!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaolin Wookie View Post
    Alchemy is ridiculous in every culture it has popped up in. It's pseudoscience (science hijacked by schizophrenics). If you apply it to tai chi or something, you have to apply it to everything. Hence, you must brush the crumbs off your pants five times, even though one swipe would have sufficed to clean the mess. If you're driving your car and you make a right turn, you'd better **** well turn that wheel five times fully and make five complete circles, because if you don't, you'll throw off your delicate internal chemical balances. You don't cook chemicals in your veins, or control the functions of your liver with breathing techniques, or do irreparable damage to your kidneys by having bad coordination during your single whip movements. You ward off and push to ward off a punch and push.

    Sure, the alchemy predated Tai Chi, but I guaran****tee that it had precisely dick to do with the structural formulation of the art. I'm sure someone very invested in the alchemical society imposed upon the art his alchemical prejudices to make it more personalized. But come on.....you show me a chemical formula that delineates how the body should move during tai chi, which prescribes motions like ward offs, etc by the various movings and interminglings of hydrogens and carbons, and maybe I'll change my mind. Does hemoglobin react differently to four ward offs as opposed to five? And during which part of the fifth ward off does the hemoglobin begin to realize that something significant has happened?

    Mathematics has nothing to do with the order (?....ever hear of entropy?) of the universe. The universe works a certain way, but often doesn't work that way upon further analysis (I've always preferred Wheeler's description of a "higgledy-piggeldy" universe). You can describe it with mathematics (always fractionally imprecise--take Newton's gravitational principles and Einstein's observations of MErcury). You can describe ti with language. But mathematics is a languange man uses to describe numeric things---all of which are notions exclusive to man. Pythagoras was a wizard with numbers. But he was also a fool who believed numbers had a mystical, divine significance. His findings actually contradict TAoist numerology. So how does one prove which is correct? Pythagoras or Taoist numerology? Can you prove these things? Of course not? So how do you prove which is correct, when you have two unprovable, contradictory things?

    Considering the applicablity of Pythagoras's mathematical findings, I'm sorry to inform you that he's far more relevant to today's society than any Taoist sect's numerological nonsense. Hell, I even like his philosophy better.

    But I still regard him with mild amusement at his expense.
    Well it appears that your understanding in this area is extremely limited and biased. I suggest you have a talk with your instructor and other masters in these arts.

    We are not talking about mysticism and make believe. We are talking about real science.

    You will find that western medicine/ science supports the findings the Chinese made thousands of years ago.

  2. #6392

    is shaolin-do real???

    I suppose every style has its' detractors. There is a style of karate in Erie PA called Goshin Jutsu, on the karate pages there is a guy who is so obsessed with trashing the styles founder that he uses at least 5 different names on the forums trying to mislead people about Goshin Jutsu. In doing so he has, in my opinion, made himself the styles greatest proponent. After reading his hateful posts, it has convinced me to take up Goshin as my new style. I have had the misfortune to meet this man in person. He is by nature a bully and coward. And if he ever cares to try poking at my leg with a stick again, I will show him an interesting place to store it. Thanks for the inspiration, Ken. I will think of you in my training- every time I throw a punch or kick. Love, TIM

  3. #6393
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    Quote Originally Posted by Judge Pen View Post
    No, but he learned from a student of winglock ng. Now how did they get our forms...?
    Lol. Sad, you're still playing to old tune you played years ago.

    Still, 900 forms. Thats a little stupid in my opinion. Surely that isn't completely accurate.
    Ng Family Member

  4. #6394
    Quote Originally Posted by Ngfamilymember View Post
    Lol. Sad, you're still playing to old tune you played years ago.

    Still, 900 forms. Thats a little stupid in my opinion. Surely that isn't completely accurate.
    900 forms also includes; sparring techniques 1-20 , Chin Na 1-30 and short forms 1-30, specific sets like Yi Jin Jing , Hua Tou's 5 Animal Frolics, etc. are also considered forms. As it has also been stated/explained that Master Sin created forms as well. There are also training forms that focus on specific techniques of a system.

  5. #6395
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    I am suprised Sin The has not had his group make instructional videos yet, with the market as it is today, and with people wanting the great mysteries of the east, I bet he would have a few buyers, bunk material or not.

  6. #6396
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ngfamilymember View Post
    Lol. Sad, you're still playing to old tune you played years ago.
    I'm not playing an old tune. I e-mailed Alex Huynh and he told me that's where he learned those particular forms that he displayed in "fight science." That isn't a tune, that was a fact. I do wonder why someone in the NG lineage would be teaching forms that are clearly identifiable as SD.

    For the record, the whole Ng "rivalry" pre-dated me. I really didn't know anything about it until these forums. I actually learned a couple of Ng forms from a friend a long time ago, but didn't know anything more about them. I have no axe to grind with the Ngs.

    I'll post a copy of the e-mail responses if anyone's interested in Alex Huynh's response....
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  7. #6397
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    I wouldn't mind seeing a post of that e-mail. And as far as the statement Sin the' created forms, which ones did he create and which ones are from I chang ming?

  8. #6398
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    Quote Originally Posted by bodhi warrior View Post
    I wouldn't mind seeing a post of that e-mail. And as far as the statement Sin the' created forms, which ones did he create and which ones are from I chang ming?
    I'll post those e-mails, unedited, later today.

    As for made up forms, I wouldn't know... I hadn't heard that until TTM's posts.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  9. #6399
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    Quote Originally Posted by Judge Pen View Post
    As for made up forms, I wouldn't know... I hadn't heard that until TTM's posts.
    As I understand it, pretty much most of the forms taught from white belt to 1st brown were made by GM The to adapt Shaolin Do for its American students.
    We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a habit.
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    - Arthur C. Clarke

  10. #6400
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ngfamilymember View Post
    Lol. Sad, you're still playing to old tune you played years ago.

    Sad...were all pretty happy...besides just like rock n roll will never die, neither will SD


    Still, 900 forms. Thats a little stupid in my opinion. Surely that isn't completely accurate.
    You know what they say about opinions. It's alot more accurate than you know....almost half have been taught out to date.

  11. #6401
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    Alex Huynh's e-mail:

    Here are the e-mails I referenced. The only thing that I edited involved personal contact information. The body of the e-mails are unaltered:

    ***

    On 10/9/06, [Judge Pen] wrote:

    Alex,

    In the "Fight Science" show you demonstrated moves in a form that are, move for move, identical to forms that I know including a forms known to me as "LoHan Chien" and "Fei Hu" I'm curious to know where you learned these sequences....Did you train with anyone that studied these forms? Did you learn them from your shaolin instructor?

    I appreciate in advance your cooperation and courtesy in my questions. I look forward to hearing back from you.

    [Judge Pen]

    On 10/9/06, Alex Huynh wrote:


    Mr. [Pen],

    Yes indeed, that was Lohan Chien and Fei Fu Chu Tong (I'm afraid I just butchered the spelling). I studied ShaoLin Kungfu under Instructor David White and Grandmaster John Winglock Ng. That's where I got my official start in the Chinese martial arts. Wushu came much later (I've done traditional for over 15 years, Wushu for maybe 4 years), contrary to popular belief.

    I'm very glad you got to see the program and I hope you enjoyed it. There are many things that were cut from the show due to time restraints, but I did my best to represent the Chinese arts. Thank you for watching to show, stay tuned for more!

    Sincerely,
    Alex Huynh


    ***

    So there you go; now you all know as much as I do about these forms and the SD Ng connection to them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  12. #6402
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    I have also wondered about the five animals form that has been taught to us. It is exactly like the one in Doc fai wong's shaolin 5 animal book and video. It was mentioned that EM leonard learned this form around 1990 and that was when the book was published.

  13. #6403
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    Quote Originally Posted by bodhi warrior View Post
    I have also wondered about the five animals form that has been taught to us. It is exactly like the one in Doc fai wong's shaolin 5 animal book and video. It was mentioned that EM leonard learned this form around 1990 and that was when the book was published.
    When was this mentioned? By whom?

    You are correct, the form is 85 to 90% the same as DFW's form. My understanding of the lineage of DFW's five animal form is that Lau Bun's wife taught this form. She learned it from her father and claimed it was shaolin in origin. Given that history, its quite possible that other lineage have the same form taught through their line. To be fair its also possible that it was picked up somewhere along the way (like the book).
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  14. #6404
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    Quote Originally Posted by Judge Pen View Post
    When was this mentioned? By whom?

    You are correct, the form is 85 to 90% the same as DFW's form. My understanding of the lineage of DFW's five animal form is that Lau Bun's wife taught this form. She learned it from her father and claimed it was shaolin in origin. Given that history, its quite possible that other lineage have the same form taught through their line. To be fair its also possible that it was picked up somewhere along the way (like the book).
    Eh... slight correction... Lau Bun's teacher Yuen Hai's wife taught LB the Ng Ying set... not Lau Bun's wife.

    I watched a couple of other people from SD play that set... some play it & it's totally unrecognizable. Must be the air quality that changed it. I watched somebody else just the other week play it in a parking lot after we'd been putt putt golfing & it's pretty freaking close to the way it should be played... all things given.
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  15. #6405
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    Quote Originally Posted by bodhi warrior View Post
    I have also wondered about the five animals form that has been taught to us. It is exactly like the one in Doc fai wong's shaolin 5 animal book and video. It was mentioned that EM leonard learned this form around 1990 and that was when the book was published.
    From Amazon's website on the book... June 1987 is the publish date...

    http://www.amazon.com/Shaolin-Five-A...6598917&sr=8-4
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