Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[bodhi warrior]

It was in a class I attended long ago. EM leonard was teaching the class and made mention of when he got it from GMS. It is possible someone other than Doc fai wong would have this form, unless he was the one who made it up.

[sean_stonehart]

It was in a class I attended long ago. EM leonard was teaching the class and made mention of when he got it from GMS. It is possible someone other than Doc fai wong would have this form, unless he was the one who made it up.

The only people who would have this form come from the Hung Sing school of San Francisco started by Lau Bun. It's just that simple. Any students of Lau Bun's who spent any measurable training time with him would've/should've learned it. Lau Bun brought the set with him to America when he immigrated over in the 1920's.

There are other forms with the 5 Animal name, but this set is unique to the Hung Sing school & lineage of Lau Bun.

[bodhi warrior]

My choy li fut history is very limited, so did lau ban create the form or was he taught it by someone else. Or did he modify it? I'm just curious. I know Chan Heung(sp?) learned numerous forms and even created some to suit his students. Just wondering if Lau Ban did the same?

[sean_stonehart]

My choy li fut history is very limited, so did lau ban create the form or was he taught it by someone else. Or did he modify it? I'm just curious. I know Chan Heung(sp?) learned numerous forms and even created some to suit his students. Just wondering if Lau Ban did the same?

Story goes that Lau Bun was taught this form by his teacher's (Yuen Hai) wife. He may or may not have modified it. No way of knowing. But when compared to other sets named 5 Animals they're different from each other, except for SD's version taught at 4th to 5th black which is way to close to the 5 Animal taught by Lau Bun & published in a book by GM Doc Fai Wong.

[Judge Pen]

Eh... slight correction... Lau Bun's teacher Yuen Hai's wife taught LB the Ng Ying set... not Lau Bun's wife.

I watched a couple of other people from SD play that set... some play it & it's totally unrecognizable. Must be the air quality that changed it. I watched somebody else just the other week play it in a parking lot after we'd been putt putt golfing & it's pretty freaking close to the way it should be played... all things given.

Thanks for the correction.... I thought this topic might bring you out of the woodwork

Question then, do we know if the set was modified by Lau Bun after being taught the set from his teacher's wife? If not, then why couldn't there be similar 5 animal sets out there from a divergent lineage? I'm not advocating that this is how SD got this set mind you, (I don't really know) but it seems that other versions could possibly exist given the lineage as we have discussed.

[sean_stonehart]

Thanks for the correction.... I thought this topic might bring you out of the woodwork

Yeah work has new restrictions on Net usage... but I work form home on Wed & Fri so I have my work laptop working & my desktop for other stuff...

Question then, do we know if the set was modified by Lau Bun after being taught the set from his teacher's wife?

To my knowledge I can't say if it was or wasn't. But given that Yuen Hai's wife was from Fukien & this set doesn't (as it is taught now so presumably once it got to the US) exhibit the common Fukienese indicators (range, power generation, stance work) it's logical to assume to a degree that Lau Bun CLF-ized it to fit his teachings from Yuen Hai.

If not, then why couldn't there be similar 5 animal sets out there from a divergent lineage?

A possibility but I gotta say remote at best. There's not been any mention of Yuen Hai's teachings outside of Lau Bun in Toisan & definately no mentioning of his wife anywhere else.

I'm not advocating that this is how SD got this set mind you, (I don't really know) but it seems that other versions could possibly exist given the lineage as we have discussed.

Of course & no worries. They could indeed exist however the chances of it are slim since there's only been one school/line to teach it in the US from the 1920's to the 1980's which was Lau Bun's Hung Sing & its students, GM DFW included. Then sometime in the 80's or 90's, SD starts teaching it, possibly as late as the early 90's.

[Leto]

A piece of Lau Bun lineage Hung Sing CLF 5 animal form
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=0

another hung sing clf 5 animal form section
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=0

another one, maybe not hung sing
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=0

is this the one that is supposed to be the same as SD 5 animal form? It doesn't look anything like the one I learned from Soards. If this form is the basis, it has been wildly reinterpreted, deconstructed and put back together again into something completely unrecognizeable. Maybe that's the point...but then, if there is nothing left recognizeable of the "original" form, is it really the same form? I remember GM The was teaching it in seminars in the west around the time when I started, and probably before that. The people who saw it from him said it was pretty much the same as what the Soards were teaching in the following years, with a couple minor differences. If the above videos represent Lau Bun's Five animal form, then the one GM The teaches is something different.

I'll have to take a look at that book, and see if it's the same. Maybe the pictures will reveal where the SD form came from (reviews of the book say that it doesn't explain any transitions between the moves, or show anything from different angles...if someone tried to learn from that book, there's no way they could get it right without seeing someone perform it)

[Judge Pen]

The first example is the same form. About 1/2 into the form: Green Dragon enters the ocean (posture 52), Green Dragon faces the sun (#53) White crane double strike out (#54), etc. To my understanding, Hung Sing CLF typically plays this set slow, like tai chi, and my understanding with certain internal principles at play. If you compare Lau Bun's version to SD's it is, as I've said 80 to 85% the same. In fact the structure and general postures are the same, but the types of strikes with the posture are a little different.

I've seen some of the Soard's version of this form, and it is played a bit differently then the way I learned it from Elder Master Mullins.

[Leto]

I can see the green dragon, the white crane double strike and triple strikes are very different though. I'll take your word for it, since this is only a tiny bit of the form. I wonder how the snake postures are performed, white snake leaps over the twig, golden snake whips its tail, white snake comes out of the hole. Those are the postures which I'm always "fidgety" about, in terms of what to emphasize.

Let me ask a technical question: the way you learned it, what is the difference in arm/hand movement between golden snake whips its tail and white crane strikes wings or strikes out three times? Both seem to be sort of hooking/circling motions that would connect with ridge hand. I waft back and forth on the emphasis of the golden snake, whether it should be focusing on the finger tips or the ridge hand.

[sean_stonehart]

A piece of Lau Bun lineage Hung Sing CLF 5 animal form
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=0

That one is Lau Buns Ng Ying Kuen played by Jew Leong, the student who took over after Lau Bun died.

another hung sing clf 5 animal form section
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=0

another one, maybe not hung sing
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=0

These two vids are the same form, played by different people with immense distance in skill levels... but Hung Sing, just not the same Hung Sing (long story there)

is this the one that is supposed to be the same as SD 5 animal form?

Nope the first one only

It doesn't look anything like the one I learned from Soards.

You are not incorrect. I've watched the video on the Soard's site & I had to work to figure out what the guy was doing. It's not even in the ball park close.

If this form is the basis, it has been wildly reinterpreted, deconstructed and put back together again into something completely unrecognizeable.

BINGO!!!!!!!!

Maybe that's the point...but then, if there is nothing left recognizeable of the "original" form, is it really the same form?

Two for two!!! It's not the same... not even close, yet acknowledgement is denied on it's foundations.

If the above videos represent Lau Bun's Five animal form, then the one GM The teaches is something different.

The first video is Lau Bun's 5 Animals, which was taught in his Hung Sing School in San Fran from the mid 1930's when he opened until 1967 when he died and is still taught in the Hung Sing school there now as well as GM DFW's school and others teaching in the Bay Area that were his students.

I'll have to take a look at that book, and see if it's the same.

It is.

Maybe the pictures will reveal where the SD form came from (reviews of the book say that it doesn't explain any transitions between the moves, or show anything from different angles...if someone tried to learn from that book, there's no way they could get it right without seeing someone perform it)

Dude... you're possibly on to something there. Don't let it get out. They may disown you or claim you're a trouble maker or the like. You may even have to relocate to Ga or Tn to stay in SD with heretical speak such as that!!

Betcha a lot of other stuff would look the same too...

[JCAT]

He Is The Youngest Grand Master In 1500 Years Of Shaolin History. Is The Only Person To Be Honored With Two, Yes I Said (2) Monuments At The Shaolin Temples In China. Was Wondering How Come He Is Never In Magazine, And Who Do I Need To Contact To See If They Will Feature Him In The Kung Fu/ Tai Chi Magazine.

[cjurakpt]

why waste posts by starting a new thread when the "Is SD for real" one is still about 100 shy of the big 500 goal? be reasonable man!!!

oh, BTW, try calling IKF - they just published an article by Peter Ragnar, so at this point they are bound to let anyone in...

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...ad.php?t=32782

[SaintSage]

May your martial journey be fruitful, and here's a flame-shield. You're going to need it.

[Leto]

I'm not in the system anymore, I just like to know where some of the forms came from, and the right way to "play" them. Even if I was in the system, I wouldn't try to stir anything up, just continue doing my own thing. I'd nod politely when folks talk about "temple style" and "classical shaolin" whatever, and just train. GM The and his oldest students are the only ones who really know the truth, and they're sticking to their guns about "authentic shaolin". I don't care either way.