Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[sean_stonehart]

How so??

How so what? How so I believe you know squat about CMA?? Really easily... all the things you poo-poo'd (lion dancing, ceremony, etc...) are part of the culture of CMA. You have no culture, you get half the story. You teach half the story, the student only learns half of that... until you get what SD has.... or rather doesn't have.

My point here is that these are the things that most of the people base the legitimacy or lack there of on.

No these are things that people who practice CMA all relate to because we all share the culture.

I know the difference.

I don't believe so.

Once again, how is it that you base your opinon on a dozen or so peoples performances and website informtion and come to the conclusions you do/??

5 + Years in SD...
2001 trip to China with SD with Ky, Tx SD peeps...
Colorado's video proving what's been said here for years...
Having seen a couple of people from Colorado first hand & not thinking much of them then, but having to play nice...

I've got a little more than first hand info...

[sha0lin1]

Considering the laws or discrimination that was reflected on the Chinese in Indonesia, it stand to reason why Ie Chang Ming would alter ,modify, adapt,etc the material to be taught to his student.What is wrong with this??

This would make sense and this is what SD teaches.

It states in many articles about SD that Ie Chang Ming spent time traveling around asia picking up different styles and systems from different masters until he decided to stay in Indonesia.

From what my understanding is was that ICM was a Monk who was SKTJ's disciple and ICM fled the destruction of that temple and relocated to Indonesia and I was told that these are the forms as taught at the Fukien temple. This information can also be found in the book written by James Halladay.

Now if SKTJ was a Monk who supposedly trained at every Shaolin Temple and learned every entire form that each temple taught he would be infamous and his name would be known by every monk at the Temple. Especially since he had the disease Lycanthropy and had hair all over his body. My master has never heard of him or legends of him at the temple and believe me they are well versed in their history and legends.

[tattooedmonk]

Considering the laws or discrimination that was reflected on the Chinese in Indonesia, it stand to reason why Ie Chang Ming would alter ,modify, adapt,etc the material to be taught to his student.What is wrong with this??

This would make sense and this is what SD teaches.

It states in many articles about SD that Ie Chang Ming spent time traveling around asia picking up different styles and systems from different masters until he decided to stay in Indonesia.

From what my understanding is was that ICM was a Monk who was SKTJ's disciple and ICM fled the destruction of that temple and relocated to Indonesia and I was told that these are the forms as taught at the Fukien temple. This information can also be found in the book written by James Halladay.

Now if SKTJ was a Monk who supposedly trained at every Shaolin Temple and learned every entire form that each temple taught he would be infamous and his name would be known by every monk at the Temple. Especially since he had the disease Lycanthropy and had hair all over his body. My master has never heard of him or legends of him at the temple and believe me they are well versed in their history and legends.

Actually , It states in James halladays article in Inside Kung Fu magazine in the 80s, about the fact that Ie Chang Ming went all over Asia , etc before he went to Indonesia.

SKTJ did not study at all the Shaolin Temples , he only left the temple in Fukien twice in his life time. Most of the history that is known is from records passed on by specific master of specific systems and styles. Most of which now is being proven to be inaccurate.

Just so people know there where 3 shaolin temples at one time in Fukien province.

see this is what has started all the misunderstandings...people only taking pieces of what they have read, heard, and have thrown their own spin on it .

[tattooedmonk]

How so what? How so I believe you know squat about CMA?? Really easily... all the things you poo-poo'd (lion dancing, ceremony, etc...) are part of the culture of CMA. You have no culture, you get half the story. You teach half the story, the student only learns half of that... until you get what SD has.... or rather doesn't have.



No these are things that people who practice CMA all relate to because we all share the culture.



I don't believe so.



5 + Years in SD...
2001 trip to China with SD with Ky, Tx SD peeps...
Colorado's video proving what's been said here for years...
Having seen a couple of people from Colorado first hand & not thinking much of them then, but having to play nice...

I've got a little more than first hand info...

No they are not, they are part of the Chinese culture and have been married to the CMA for only a short period of time.



All this stuff is non-intrinsic and are part of the CMA that came from China. Do you not know or are you not aware of the reasons why we have DIFFERENT TRADITIONS???


5+ years HAHA
trip to china??
A couple of people?? HAHA what the hell does that prove?? HAnd how many people study SD nation wide??

[DPL]

Hey I have an idea, lets merge this thread with that 1500 post ass monster over on the other forum!!

JP and I have both already tried that suggestion to no avail. I've decided to give in and just enjoy the flame war.

Regardless of which side you're on, if any, if you bang your head against the wall a couple of times before you start reading it makes it a much more rewarding experience. Much like castration makes singing high notes a much more rewarding experience.

[sha0lin1]

Actually , It states in James halladays article in Inside Kung Fu magazine in the 80s, about the fact that Ie Chang Ming went all over Asia , etc before he went to Indonesia.

SKTJ did not study at all the Shaolin Temples , he only left the temple in Fukien twice in his life time. Most of the history that is known is from records passed on by specific master of specific systems and styles. Most of which now is being proven to be inaccurate.

Just so people know there where 3 shaolin temples at one time in Fukien province.

see this is what has started all the misunderstandings...people only taking pieces of what they have read, heard, and have thrown their own spin on it .

I am quoting from James Halladay's book "Shaolin-Do:Secrets from the Temple" published in 1995. And also quoting from what was taught to me by your Masters and their students in Austin. Are you saying that they don't know what they are talking about. I have also heard this direct from GM SKT during seminars that I have attended. Are you shrugging me off as misunderstanding direct teachings? If so then you are saying that your own GM, Masters, and senior instructors are throwing their own spin on things because this comes direct from the source.

[DPL]

How so what? How so I believe you know squat about CMA?? Really easily... all the things you poo-poo'd (lion dancing, ceremony, etc...) are part of the culture of CMA. You have no culture, you get half the story. You teach half the story, the student only learns half of that... until you get what SD has.... or rather doesn't have.

No these are things that people who practice CMA all relate to because we all share the culture.

Sean, your post makes me sincerely curious: where is the list or bible of things that one's art must have/do in order to be considered a 'true' CMA? Do you have to believe a certain history? I know that not all styles' versions of history agree (remember the recent 'only truly authentic Shaolin' thread?), so which one is the right version that provides membership in the club?

I'm thinking beyond just the very tired SD discussion but my curiosity is obviously based in this discussion, because I've seen people from 'accepted' CMAs, on this forum or in PM, say things like 'well, SD produces people who can fight, but it's not CMA', or 'SD's pressure point strikers are excellent, but it's not CMA', or even, occasionally, posted here, 'It does look like a CMA.'

The folks who post the last one are admittedly few and far between, but it has happened, from people who aren't SD. So there are some non-SD CMAers who are willing to give SD some kind of benefit of the doubt from a pure forms perspective, but the majority clearly disagrees.

This disagreement brings me back to the question - what's the magical list of things you must have/do to be CMA?

I'd like some real meat with this answer, please. And if there are 10 defining characteristics of CMA and your art only has nine, is it no longer a 'real' CMA? Where do you draw the line?

Again, not specific to Shaolin-Do. All the witty SD pot-shots all you flamers out there just cleverly thought of have already been taken at least 10 times each. Don't be boring.

Consider the breadth of CMA with the answer, please.

[DPL]

The Xia,
Thanks but you didn't get my point - I'm asking NOT specific to Shaolin-Do. Please re-read previous post.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

Shaolin Do is Chung Moo Quan/Oom Yung Doe lite....

[DPL]

Shaolin Do is Chung Moo Quan/Oom Yung Doe lite....

See, that's what I mean. That one's been done to death already.

Back to the question at hand, please.

[lkfmdc]

Sin The's kung fu is as fake as his hair and his ethnicity......

[DPL]

Sin The's kung fu is as fake as his hair and his ethnicity......

Good one. That one's only been posted at least 20 times too.

Back to the question at hand, please.

[lkfmdc]

why is it fake? Want a couple of reasons?

as already mentioned a few thousand times, a random collection of sets from various sources, all played the same.... Hung Ga doesn't look like Pak Hok, it certainly doesn't look like Ba Gua

a good sprinkling of modern wushu thrown in to impress the rubes.....

claims to ridiculous sets and styles that there is no record of ever existing (three hundred million angry bees of something?)

forget the karate gi, the karate weapons, the movement is kenpo, it is not CMA. If you can't see that, you obviously haven't done enough CMA

I could go on, but that will do for the short term

[tattooedmonk]

why is it fake? Want a couple of reasons?

as already mentioned a few thousand times, a random collection of sets from various sources, all played the same.... Hung Ga doesn't look like Pak Hok, it certainly doesn't look like Ba Gua

Here, this is finally something we can agree on . I have to admit that most of the practitioners do not have the proper '"flavor" and do not " play "the forms the way they should. It is very difficult sometimes to tell which style someone is doing unless you know the forms .

And as for the obscure , rare , unheard of forms , they show up all the time.

From what I have seen from the Fukien province forms( mostly white crane precursor to Karate) that are still taught in China they look a great deal like what we do.


Maybe it is you who does not know much about CMA.

[godzillakungfu]

And as for the obscure , rare , unheard of forms , they show up all the time.

Which ones?