View Poll Results: What to do about the 'Is Shaolin-Do for real?' thread

Voters
57. You may not vote on this poll
  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Merge all S-D threads together so it clears 1000 posts!

    22 38.60%
  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Let all the S-D threads stand independently.

    13 22.81%
  • Keep IS-Dfr locked down. All IS-Dfr posters deserved to be punished.

    5 8.77%
  • Delete them all. Let Yama sort them out.

    17 29.82%
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Thread: Is Shaolin-Do for real?

  1. #6586
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Xia View Post
    To me, I don't see it as not looking like TCMA and looking like Karate. I see it as looking just plain bad.
    Take this video as an example
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=qemnikjhBkI
    There are loads of things I can pick out about it. Out of all those things, I'll pick out what I find most glaring. Because of safety issues, it's their attempt at iron palm. They're leaning over and smashing their hands against the bag. That's a basic thing every sifu that teaches iron palm I've come across warns NOT to do from day 1 of training it.
    I really wish people would stop comparing that hippie looking shaolin to Shaolin do. The Soards have really done some damage out west. Back in the 70's and 80's training in SD was tough. You poured sweat and blood. I had bruises all over the place from sparring. It was a mix of conditioning and forms. of course there's people that don't look that great, but its that way in every school no matter the style. Does shaolin do look like the wushu of today, hell no. And thank god for that. I've seen some very good fighters come out of SD and in the end that's all that matters.

  2. #6587
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    Quote Originally Posted by lkfmdc View Post
    why is it fake? Want a couple of reasons?

    as already mentioned a few thousand times, a random collection of sets from various sources, all played the same.... Hung Ga doesn't look like Pak Hok, it certainly doesn't look like Ba Gua

    a good sprinkling of modern wushu thrown in to impress the rubes.....

    claims to ridiculous sets and styles that there is no record of ever existing (three hundred million angry bees of something?)

    forget the karate gi, the karate weapons, the movement is kenpo, it is not CMA. If you can't see that, you obviously haven't done enough CMA

    I could go on, but that will do for the short term
    Wow, I try to give you guys the benefit of the doubt but you really aren't reading my post.

    FORGET SHAOLIN-DO. Read my question again in my response to Sean. Everyone on here is all about the 'it's not CMA' but no one apparently can define what the checklist or bible of 'what it takes to be CMA'. Read my post again from about 11:30 last night and please respond to the actual question I asked.

    Let me say it one more time just in case someone didn't see it in all caps above - FORGET SHAOLIN-DO. This is a question about CMA in general.

    Like, thanks, dude.
    Meanwhile, I'll be looking for God in this box of Cheerios - Crushing Fist

  3. #6588
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    Apr 2007
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    Just one question maybe some of the SD old timers can answer for me and all.
    Why do the certificates you receive after a belt test say Sin The Karate Club.

  4. #6589
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    Quote Originally Posted by tattooedmonk View Post
    Here, this is finally something we can agree on . I have to admit that most of the practitioners do not have the proper '"flavor" and do not " play "the forms the way they should. It is very difficult sometimes to tell which style someone is doing unless you know the forms .

    And as for the obscure , rare , unheard of forms , they show up all the time.

    From what I have seen from the Fukien province forms( mostly white crane precursor to Karate) that are still taught in China they look a great deal like what we do.


    Maybe it is you who does not know much about CMA.
    what you do does not resemble fukien white crane...you're material does not contain tun, tow, fow, chum.

  5. #6590
    Quote Originally Posted by DPL View Post

    but no one apparently can define what the checklist or bible of 'what it takes to be CMA'.
    Tin Yan Deih Sam Moon Hoi Baai Faat
    Sae Moon Faat
    Luk Moon Faat
    saam Hop
    Luk Hop
    Lin Wan
    Sahp Sae kiuh
    Nin Kiuh
    Jaat Kiuh
    Jih Wu Bouh
    Chat Sing Bouh
    Baat Gua Bouh
    Ti Da Seut Na

    if you don't have these or don't understand what they are, you are not doing CMA

    Each system or tradition has different ways of doign these, but they define Chinese Martial Art
    Chan Tai San Book at https://www.createspace.com/4891253

    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    well, like LKFMDC - he's a genuine Kung Fu Hero™
    Quote Originally Posted by Taixuquan99 View Post
    As much as I get annoyed when it gets derailed by the array of strange angry people that hover around him like moths, his good posts are some of my favorites.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    I think he goes into a cave to meditate and recharge his chi...and bite the heads off of bats, of course....

  6. #6591
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    Quote Originally Posted by jit fu View Post
    what you do does not resemble fukien white crane...you're material does not contain tun, tow, fow, chum.
    You're right, our white crane does not resemble fukien white crane. Its obviously not fukien white crane. But our Sanjie form does resemble fukien white crane.

    I don't have the answers to lineage and I don't pretend to know more than I do. I think SD is a blend of CMA and Indonesian "gumbo" mixed with the flair of Americans learning a doing the forms the way they see fit and that flavor being passed down from student to student. I believe that the orgins are CMA, but its evolved into its own thing entirely. I don't think that's a bad thing as all CMA evolved from something else. If it doesn't evolve then it is nothing more than a stagnant historical picture of a martial art from a specific time in history (which has its own benefits and detriments).

    SD is effective and if you don't get caught up in arguing over non-verifiable history, its as effective as any other TMA.

    I do resent the comparisions to CMD--I've read the book "Herding the Moo" and any comparision to that cult is patently unfair.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  7. #6592
    Tin Yan Deih Sam Moon Hoi Baai Faat
    Sae Moon Faat
    Luk Moon Faat
    saam Hop
    Luk Hop
    Lin Wan
    Sahp Sae kiuh
    Nin Kiuh
    Jaat Kiuh
    Jih Wu Bouh
    Chat Sing Bouh
    Baat Gua Bouh
    Ti Da Seut Na

    if you don't have these or don't understand what they are, you are not doing CMA

    Each system or tradition has different ways of doign these, but they define Chinese Martial Art


    Reply]
    Could you state these in English for the Non Chinese speakers?

  8. #6593
    I do resent the comparisions to CMD--I've read the book "Herding the Moo" and any comparision to that cult is patently unfair.

    Reply]
    Ok, maybe that one was over the top, I apologize. It's just every time I see Shaolin Do guys do forms, they so remind me of CMD/OYD guys doing forms. Both have that same mindless regurgitation of bad posture, similar horrible mechanics, and similar flavor of unbalanced motion.

  9. #6594
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    Quote Originally Posted by DPL View Post
    Sean, your post makes me sincerely curious: where is the list or bible of things that one's art must have/do in order to be considered a 'true' CMA? Do you have to believe a certain history? I know that not all styles' versions of history agree (remember the recent 'only truly authentic Shaolin' thread?), so which one is the right version that provides membership in the club?

    I'm thinking beyond just the very tired SD discussion but my curiosity is obviously based in this discussion, because I've seen people from 'accepted' CMAs, on this forum or in PM, say things like 'well, SD produces people who can fight, but it's not CMA', or 'SD's pressure point strikers are excellent, but it's not CMA', or even, occasionally, posted here, 'It does look like a CMA.'

    The folks who post the last one are admittedly few and far between, but it has happened, from people who aren't SD. So there are some non-SD CMAers who are willing to give SD some kind of benefit of the doubt from a pure forms perspective, but the majority clearly disagrees.

    This disagreement brings me back to the question - what's the magical list of things you must have/do to be CMA?

    I'd like some real meat with this answer, please. And if there are 10 defining characteristics of CMA and your art only has nine, is it no longer a 'real' CMA? Where do you draw the line?

    Again, not specific to Shaolin-Do. All the witty SD pot-shots all you flamers out there just cleverly thought of have already been taken at least 10 times each. Don't be boring.

    Consider the breadth of CMA with the answer, please.
    DPL... just saw the post.

    Sifu Ross's post pretty much nails it, but check your email tonight. I'm at work now & have an event to attend this afternoon for my school. I'll hit you tonight with more info/details.
    Message: Due to the ongoing Recession, God has decided the light at the end of the tunnel will be shut off due to power costs. That is all.

  10. #6595
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    judge,

    i have seen sd's version of sam chien performed by different ranks and schools. it lacks the tun, tow, fow, chum. sam chien is a hakka set and must comply with these 4 elements. that what gives it life and power. no one denies sd produces good fighters, most styles do. however like i posted earlier, every style has there own way of emitting power, footwork, ect. one can't simply say ok, i learned hua fist, now i learned tiger crane and play them the same way. unless one is into just learning the shell of the system. no ill will intended.

  11. #6596
    Quote Originally Posted by Judge Pen View Post

    I don't have the answers to lineage and I don't pretend to know more than I do.
    Judge Pen, you seem like a reasonable person, and I have no objection to anything you wrote. (I just snipped so people know who I am responding to)

    Listen, if someone wanted to combine southern mantis with Taekwondo (to pick a strange example of mixing stuff), Said "this is John Doe's new style" and was happy with it MORE POWER TO THEM

    If, on the other hand, they called that creation "Choy Lay Fut" then you are gonna have a lot of people taking him to task

    If he says the Taekwondo taegeuk forms he is doing are really ancient Ba Gua forms that everyone else has forgotten, well, some crap is gonna hit the rotary oscillator

    If he gets a local sign company to put up a tin sign that says "Kansas City has voted John Doe the best martial artist in the universe".... I think you get the jist
    Chan Tai San Book at https://www.createspace.com/4891253

    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    well, like LKFMDC - he's a genuine Kung Fu Hero™
    Quote Originally Posted by Taixuquan99 View Post
    As much as I get annoyed when it gets derailed by the array of strange angry people that hover around him like moths, his good posts are some of my favorites.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    I think he goes into a cave to meditate and recharge his chi...and bite the heads off of bats, of course....

  12. #6597
    If someone sells you a Diamond, but delivers a Cubic Zirconium, I think you'd be ****ed about paying top dollar for a real Diamond, wouldn't you?

  13. #6598
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    Quote Originally Posted by lkfmdc View Post
    Tin Yan Deih Sam Moon Hoi Baai Faat
    Sae Moon Faat
    Luk Moon Faat
    saam Hop
    Luk Hop
    Lin Wan
    Sahp Sae kiuh
    Nin Kiuh
    Jaat Kiuh
    Jih Wu Bouh
    Chat Sing Bouh
    Baat Gua Bouh
    Ti Da Seut Na
    Just trying to guess from the romanization:

    Heaven, Man, Earth 3-Gate Opening ??? Method
    4-Gates theory/method
    6-Gates theory/method
    3 Harmonies
    6 Harmonies
    Chain/repeating
    14 Bridges
    ??? Bridge(s)
    ??? Bridge(s)
    Self-protecting(?) footwork
    7-Star footwork
    Bagua footwork
    Kick, Punch, Wrestle, Seize (found one of his old posts)

  14. #6599
    Heaven, Man, Earth 3-Gate Open SHUT Method
    4-Gates theory/method
    6-Gates theory/method
    3 Harmonies
    6 Harmonies
    Chain/repeating
    14 Bridges
    ADHERING Bridge(s)
    DESTROYING Bridge(s)
    MERIDIAN footwork
    7-Star footwork
    Bagua footwork
    Kick, Punch, Wrestle, Seize

    more or less
    Chan Tai San Book at https://www.createspace.com/4891253

    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    well, like LKFMDC - he's a genuine Kung Fu Hero™
    Quote Originally Posted by Taixuquan99 View Post
    As much as I get annoyed when it gets derailed by the array of strange angry people that hover around him like moths, his good posts are some of my favorites.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    I think he goes into a cave to meditate and recharge his chi...and bite the heads off of bats, of course....

  15. #6600
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    I can't figure out how "Jih Wu" = meridian?

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