Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Adam Hsu once wrote that he traveled all throughout China looking for a general definition of Shaolin. He went to many Shaolin schools, and only seemed to find variations of Longfist. The schools he went to that claimed to be Shaolin and didn't teach Longfist generally could not provide him an answer, b/c they were variants of other kung fu styles. He concluded that the majority of chinese kung fu in general predated Shaolin, and many secret societies during the Qing dynasty revamped the Shaolin name, only because they needed a kind of mascot to create a brotherhood for overthrowing the Manchus.

If a Chinese guy couldn't define Shaolin in China, I don't think we're gonna make much progress on a California based webboard.

That was the point I was gonna lead up to, if you can't define what is shaolin how can we say we "do" shaolin or that are system has shaolin styles in it?

[Judge Pen]

KC's B-Day? I'm such a bad friend, I forgot. Happy B-Day KC.

[sean_stonehart]

Exactly. Karate has been a general term used to describe MA for a very long time. Karate after Gechin Funokoshi got a hold of it just meant "empty hand" But originally meant "China hand."

Karoty , LMAO!! that is just to funny. You Kill me JP.

Not really. In Japan it was common to hear such terms as kenpojutsu, dakenjutsu/dakentaijutsu, koshijutsu, koppojutsu, jujutsu, taijutsu, etc... all of those terms are sidebars found in karate or terms used for unarmed striking arts or techniques in Japan.

Gichin Funakoshi called it karate using the character for China in Okinawa & early on in Japan, but to go along with the partyline & political environment, changed it to "open hand".

In Okinawa, it was called... te, kempo, etc...

My Hogan sucks so I'm stopping there & my JMA history is a bit rusty.

[sean_stonehart]

KUNG FU DOES NOT MEAN CHINESE MARTIAL ARTS.

No but it is synonymous for it.

[Lamassu]

Personally, I don't see the point behind it. The Shaolin Temples were like universities for martial arts. Styles were created, introduced and perfected behind those walls, and if your particular martial art has styles and techniques that were traditionally taught in the Shaolin Temples, then that's a claim to Shaolin lineage. Honestly, due to the poor record keeping and the burning of buildings and books (the greatest sin in the world is to destroy a book), accurately claiming lineage to Shaolin is like claiming to be a descendant of Atlantis. No one can honestly and accurately say that theirs is the living incarnation of Shaolin. Not unless, you agree that every school that has material taught in the Shaolin Temples are also living incarnations of Shaolin.

[bodhi warrior]

Here's a question for the old-timers. If GGM Ie adapted his Central Shaolin school to accommodate Japanese cosmetics in order to throw off anti-Chinese sentiment in Indonesia, why is it that we have sifus and not senseis? At any time, were any Shaolin-Do teachers called sensei?

Back in the 80's when I started we were instructed to call our techers sensei.

[Baqualin]

I know Ie existed. I've seen the pics of him training White Earp's teacher.

You just can't resist.....your like a skeeter & a bug zapper
BQ

[Judge Pen]

If a Chinese guy couldn't define Shaolin in China, I don't think we're gonna make much progress on a California based webboard.

LOL! How true!

I'm surprised Sal hasn't chimed in on this yet. There are references to the 10 core sets of shaolin (which incidently aren't taught in SD). Anyone know when they came about and when they were first taught in the temple(s)? Were sets that pre-date these "core 10" ever taught in the temple(s)?

[Baqualin]

Here's a question for the old-timers. If GGM Ie adapted his Central Shaolin school to accommodate Japanese cosmetics in order to throw off anti-Chinese sentiment in Indonesia, why is it that we have sifus and not senseis? At any time, were any Shaolin-Do teachers called sensei?

Here, in the early 70's I don't remember being instructed to call a teacher by any specific title other than sir (out of respect) until they reached Master level & the only Masters then were GMSin & M. Hiang.....since M. Sin, M. Hiang & M. Leonard have been my only teachers thats all I've ever used. I teach now and everyone calls me by my first name........that's fine with me.
BQ

[Flaca]

KC's B-Day? I'm such a bad friend, I forgot. Happy B-Day KC.

... and you're close enough to hoist one with him! I'll knock one back in his honor. (like I need an excuse.)
or should we do horse stance for 5 minutes? That'd make him happy.

[Shaolin Wookie]

That was the point I was gonna lead up to, if you can't define what is shaolin how can we say we "do" shaolin or that are system has shaolin styles in it?

Easy. I know I'm revealing some secrets here, but here goes:

We at Shaolin-Do are the remnants of a secret society founded in teh Qing Dynasty, dedicated to the proposition that we ought to thoroughly overthrow the Manchus and restore the brightness and glory of the Ming Dynasty. Granted, the Manchus aren't really in power anymore.....but if they ever buck up and start wild'n out, then you're going to see some fireworks, dude. The reason GGM Ie was in Indonesia? It wasn't b/c he killed some Reds. It was because of all the Manchus.....

He was like James Bond, only asian, and old; and his Q was a Sasquatch.

[Shaolin Wookie]

Yeah, that was it. It's a biotch to park or even get there when it's busy downtown and you've got to drive there for the testing. Plus, the ceiling's too low. Trying to do a staff form there is nerve-wracking, 'cus you're always on the brink of taking down a line of flourescents, showering yourself with glass, paying for new carpet, and generally looking like an ass.

[Judge Pen]

He was like James Bond, only asian, and old; and his Q was a Sasquatch.

Shouldn't that be his "M" instead?

[NJM]

That was the point I was gonna lead up to, if you can't define what is shaolin how can we say we "do" shaolin or that are system has shaolin styles in it?

Lineage helps.

[GLW]

seems to me that you are getting sidetracked from the objections and issues people have with Shaolin-do.

There are really two issues here:

(1) the claim that Shaolin-Do and its head are the only ones who are doing the REAL Shaolin.

(this is like claiming to be Champion of all Asia - say what?)

I do find it funny that such a claim can be made - with all that it implies as in "All you other folks doing anything Shaolin - well you just aren't doing it..BUT WE ARE....yada yada yada" and then having someone from a Shaolin-Do school complain because Ross isn't showing them courtesy and respect....seems the first volley was fired in this assumption on that battle....

People are also bugged about this claim because there is a lot of 'questionable' background stated as 'fact' here.

Sorry, but Zhong guo Wushu _ as in Traditional Chinese Martial Arts - came from a Chinese Culture...where family, lineage, etc.. rule. To make claims about your family history is just as big a deal as claiming something in your lineage....simply not done.

(2) The real thing you are trying to get to with this Shaolin thread should actually be reworded into what makes a style or systems Zhong guo Wushu - Chinese Martial Art - vs. something that is NOT a Chinese Style - and this is a discussion that Kenpo guys have been working over for years....and they are not EVEN claiming to be the authentic Shaolin...

Now, you CAN get to a description of what makes a style Chinese Martial Art - in another thread, Ross did a start at this. It goes further - there is a flavor to the movement - here you have to get into the divisions - northern TENDS to have this flavor southern - that...

And that is where the Shaolin-Do claims get a lot of flack.... they do not fit this classification by many's estimation