View Poll Results: What to do about the 'Is Shaolin-Do for real?' thread

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  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Merge all S-D threads together so it clears 1000 posts!

    22 38.60%
  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Let all the S-D threads stand independently.

    13 22.81%
  • Keep IS-Dfr locked down. All IS-Dfr posters deserved to be punished.

    5 8.77%
  • Delete them all. Let Yama sort them out.

    17 29.82%
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Thread: Is Shaolin-Do for real?

  1. #6766
    Do we all get some kind of prize if this thread gets to 500 pages?

    A few thoughts on previous postings...

    KC... the Wudang monastery is, according to legend, the birthplace of the internal martial arts. It's a Taoist temple... which has a different philosophy than the Buddhist underpinnings of the Shaolin temple. I haven't been able to find any reference to a "Shaolin Wudang" temple except in the "Shaolin-do: Secrets of the Temple" book, which is not the most reliable source I've seen. If you've got another source, please let me know.


    Lamassu... you asked a while ago how SD looks different from TCMA. I'm going to cite one example that one can compare with current videos out there. The internal concept of 'silk-reeling', the spiralling of the body and limbs to aid the creation of 'fa jing' power. Although it is seems to be emphasized in Chen Taiji and Bagua, I think it is manifest to at least some degree in the external arts as well. It contributes to the fluidity and 'whipping' motions of TCMA. If one compares the following bagua clips, one can see that one practitioner has it... the other one doesn't.

    Luo Jinhua
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icwEuTHsDKM

    M. Gary Grooms
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCJzD7ZS

  2. #6767
    Quote Originally Posted by Lamassu View Post
    I'm not offended, and your description of a cat stance is accurate, but in your earlier posts you start bashing the guy, which is kind of sad since he isn't on this forum to defend himself. It's like making fun of a quadraplegic and where's the fun in that?



    Well if either of us had any experience in what valley girls do...you ARE in Cali.
    Sorry you took it that way. And the only experience I have in what Valley girls do is me!!

  3. #6768
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by arinathos.valin View Post
    Lamassu... you asked a while ago how SD looks different from TCMA. I'm going to cite one example that one can compare with current videos out there. The internal concept of 'silk-reeling', the spiralling of the body and limbs to aid the creation of 'fa jing' power. Although it is seems to be emphasized in Chen Taiji and Bagua, I think it is manifest to at least some degree in the external arts as well. It contributes to the fluidity and 'whipping' motions of TCMA. If one compares the following bagua clips, one can see that one practitioner has it... the other one doesn't.

    Luo Jinhua
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icwEuTHsDKM

    M. Gary Grooms
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCJzD7ZS
    AT LAST!!! Thank you for something specific concerning the discrepency between SD and TCMA! Why is it no one else bothered explaining this to me? I'm familiar with the internal concept of 'silk-reeling' and must admit I found it lacking when I was first taught pa kua chang. It's something I'm trying to implement into my forms to this day. I have a question: do external CMA's incorporate 'silk-reeling' in their forms or is it only found in internal CMAs?

    As for the video clips, I couldn't make a proper comparison because the link for M. Gary Grooms is a 'malformed link'.
    We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a habit.
    - Aristotle

    The only way of finding the limits of the possible is by going beyond them into the impossible.
    - Arthur C. Clarke

  4. #6769
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwaichang View Post
    Hey I know that guy well and I will tell you it is about the money made from the fad of BJJ not the style
    So there's no truth to the statement made by TTM when he said

    This would explain why it is that all these guys have to get "Real" martial training and fighting from non Chinese arts.
    in this thread? http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/foru...postcount=6137

    But yet... http://www.texaskungfu.com/photogallery/index.html

    in the Jiujitsu gallery shows him suited up in BJJ blue gi & white belt instead of he black SD gi & black belt in the other pic? One looks for posterity & one looks like class. His bio states he's a blue belt in Carlson Gracie BJJ.

    http://www.texaskungfu.com/school/instructors.html

    Mind you I'm not knocking the guy, but I'm pulling this out to get a straight answer.

    (Also, Lexington used to offer Judo on Fridays too but that's off the website now)

    Quote Originally Posted by kwaichang View Post
    and as far as the stance is concerned that is not a Karate Niko Ashi Dachi for sure it isnt Karate at all unless Kara te is China Hand. I will debate the difference of SD to Karate any day so bring on the examples so I can destroy them KC
    Where do you want to start?

    Check your PMs.
    Message: Due to the ongoing Recession, God has decided the light at the end of the tunnel will be shut off due to power costs. That is all.

  5. #6770
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    In Lexington I am told Judo was taught there but the story I heard was a respectful Judo player needed a place to teach and in the true MA spirit the gym was made available to him out of the kindness of SD heart. I think we all can learn a lesson from this.
    As far as the SD teacher in the pic and website there are many misguided people in the world. He chooses to study an art JJ that he feels is lacking in SD . I on the otherhand could care less about JJ as I have all I need and more in SD. Remember the fox that chases 2 rabbits catches neither. Do not judge a complete style by one or two people. KC
    A Fool is Born every Day !

  6. #6771
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    [QUOTE=Lamassu;788806]AT LAST!!! Thank you for something specific concerning the discrepency between SD and TCMA! Why is it no one else bothered explaining this to me? I'm familiar with the internal concept of 'silk-reeling' and must admit I found it lacking when I was first taught pa kua chang.

    Too bad.....that falls back on your teacher
    BQ

  7. #6772
    Quote Originally Posted by kwaichang View Post
    In Lexington I am told Judo was taught there but the story I heard was a respectful Judo player needed a place to teach and in the true MA spirit the gym was made available to him out of the kindness of SD heart. I think we all can learn a lesson from this.
    As far as the SD teacher in the pic and website there are many misguided people in the world. He chooses to study an art JJ that he feels is lacking in SD . I on the otherhand could care less about JJ as I have all I need and more in SD. Remember the fox that chases 2 rabbits catches neither. Do not judge a complete style by one or two people. KC
    I feel the same way. I use what I have learned from SD against all other arts...it works quite well.

  8. #6773
    [QUOTE=Baqualin;788847]
    Quote Originally Posted by Lamassu View Post
    AT LAST!!! Thank you for something specific concerning the discrepency between SD and TCMA! Why is it no one else bothered explaining this to me? I'm familiar with the internal concept of 'silk-reeling' and must admit I found it lacking when I was first taught pa kua chang.

    Too bad.....that falls back on your teacher
    BQ

  9. #6774
    Sorry about the screwed up link...

    Here's another try.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCJzD7ZSATM

    If that doesn't work, do a search for "Classical Pakua" on YouTube...

    Cheers,
    Evan

  10. #6775
    Join Date
    May 2007
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    Tennessee
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    Quote Originally Posted by lkfmdc View Post
    Heaven, Man, Earth 3-Gate Open SHUT Method
    4-Gates theory/method
    6-Gates theory/method
    3 Harmonies
    6 Harmonies
    Chain/repeating
    14 Bridges
    ADHERING Bridge(s)
    DESTROYING Bridge(s)
    MERIDIAN footwork
    7-Star footwork
    Bagua footwork
    Kick, Punch, Wrestle, Seize
    I've been busy at work and this got sort of lost with all the merging, etc. recently, but I'd like to dive into this a bit more.

    The original question was what is absolutely essential to study for something to be considered a true Chinese Martial art and above was the answer.

    My question now to both SD'ers and non-SD'ers - do you study any or all of these? If not, which ones do you not do?
    Meanwhile, I'll be looking for God in this box of Cheerios - Crushing Fist

  11. #6776
    For the sake of complete honesty regarding the bagua clips I posted, I should say that I learned the Jiang Bagua form through my SD instructor. He was, I think, better than many of the other SDers in the realm of internal styles, but like lamassu, I never got any of the 'silk reeling' concepts from my original bagua training.

    I should, however, say that my previous SD training with the Jiang Bagua form has made it easier to 're-learn' the form with some of the subtleties I'm finding in forms by Luo Jinhua, Ted Mancuso, and Gerald Sharp. I would expect that learning the Jiang form from scratch would have been far more difficult.

    Regarding 'silk reeling' in the external styles, I think that the external CMA styles may not calll it by that term, but the spiralling, whipping body action is present in at least a rudimentary fashion in many of the forms. Now that I've been 'keyed in' on the concept, I've been seeing some of it in the internal and external forms.

    Now, that isn't to say that SD external forms don't have this type of body movement, but at least in the tournaments that I've been to, I haven't seen it to the degree that I've seen it in other CMA demonstrations...

  12. #6777

    Come on

    Take this SD video.
    http://www.shao-lin.com/category.cfm?CategoryID=28
    And compare it with this.
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=-VQW55fdJxA
    Don't you see a big difference between the Fu Hok Seung Ying Kuen done by Chiu Chi Ling vs. the SD version?
    Last edited by The Xia; 08-20-2007 at 08:55 PM.

  13. #6778
    A few more thoughts on some of the recent postings... I'm on vacation and my wife's asleep, so I have a bit more time to blab on the computer.

    Some of the posters have really made a ruckus about lineage. A few SD devotees have stated that the lineage issue is not that important to them, and they can't understand why others seem to keep bashing the history of SD.

    In the TCMA culture, lineage is a BIG deal. Part of it is the Confucian ancestor worship thing, part of it is the idea that great martial artists are more likely to come from great lineages. When an outside school claims to be part of a lineage and is really not, others tend to get really hot under the collar about it. As an example, I imagine that lkfmdc, who has a traceable, impressive lineage, may unconsiously consider it an insult that such an 'inferior' art would deign to call themselves the true Shaolin inheritor. and consider it a moral obligation to point out the errors of those who have what he considers to be a false lineage-sometimes in a very direct way...

    I still am unsure of the intent of some of the anti-SD posters out there, though. If the intent is to get under the skin of some of the more devout SD practitioners, I think they are succeeding quite well. If their intent is to change minds, however, I think they're failing miserably.

    People who have invested years, sometimes decades of their life on one endeavour usually don't take kindly to people who call their effort a load of ****. Even if the evidence is rock-solid, true believers will find a way to minimize it, discount it, or ignore it. It's even easier to dismiss the evidence if the person giving the evidence is hostile or condescending. I've seen it happen with religion, ideology, party affiliation, and with martial arts. One might see the same defensiveness on lkfmdc's part if one were to confront him with the idea that his art is almost worthless, as you'd get more fitness and self defense bang-for-your-buck if you just ran a few marathons and packed a concealed firearm.

    I actually have a great deal of respect for many SDers who have seen the evidence that the anti-SDers offer, realize the validity of the arguments, and continue to train with SD because it suits their needs. I might actually be one of those had my work schedule been more compatible with the class times. The fact is that SD does indeed offer a way to keep fit, and to learn a martial art in a fun atmosphere with good people. Ultimately, that's probably what is most important. Unfortunately, all of the discrepancies, and the excuses for those discrepancies, is what keeps this forum entry chugging towards the 500 page mark...

  14. #6779
    Quote Originally Posted by The Xia View Post
    Take this SD video.
    http://www.shao-lin.com/category.cfm?CategoryID=28
    And compare it with this.
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=-VQW55fdJxA
    Don't you see a big difference between the Fu Hok Seung Ying Kuen done by Chiu Chi Ling vs. the SD version?

    You know, that CSC SD video keeps on popping up... and I have to keep stopping myself from banging my head against the wall every time I see it...

  15. #6780
    Quote Originally Posted by The Xia View Post
    Take this SD video.
    http://www.shao-lin.com/category.cfm?CategoryID=28
    And compare it with this.
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=-VQW55fdJxA
    Don't you see a big difference between the Fu Hok Seung Ying Kuen done by Chiu Chi Ling vs. the SD version?
    LMAO !! I have great issue with this particular form as well. I see NO visable evidence that they are the same form . I learned this form about 10-12 years ago from CSC Master S.Soard. I learned it more like the way Chiu Chi Ling did it. Over the last few years I noticed that the Soards did not care so much about quality as they did quantity. It is all about the number$!!!

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