View Poll Results: What to do about the 'Is Shaolin-Do for real?' thread

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  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Merge all S-D threads together so it clears 1000 posts!

    22 38.60%
  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Let all the S-D threads stand independently.

    13 22.81%
  • Keep IS-Dfr locked down. All IS-Dfr posters deserved to be punished.

    5 8.77%
  • Delete them all. Let Yama sort them out.

    17 29.82%
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Thread: Is Shaolin-Do for real?

  1. #6781
    Quote Originally Posted by The Xia View Post
    To me, the issue with Shaolin Do is not that “it’s not CMA” and “It looks like Karate.” I actually feel that some CMA styles look more like some non-CMA styles then they do some other CMA styles. For example, I feel that Shuai Jiao looks a lot more like Jujutsu then it does Wing Chun. So it’s not an issue of “not looking like CMA” for me. The lineage doesn’t add up. The forms that I have seen listed in SD (and that I have not seen played as they are intended to be), are not all Shaolin. The timeline doesn’t add up to what is known about the Fukien Temple, and the story doesn't match any other Southern Shaolin Kung Fu lineages' stories I've heard. But besides this, when I see SD play forms, I see loads of mistakes (everything from clunky transitions, poor stances, flailing arms and legs, improper hand formations, and more). I’m not impressed with other aspects of SD training I've seen either. I saw great danger in an iron palm attempt in one video. To me, Shaolin Do doesn’t look like Karate, to me, it just looks bad.
    I agree on some of your points,but do not condemn us all because of the performances of a few.

  2. #6782
    Quote Originally Posted by arinathos.valin View Post
    You know, that CSC SD video keeps on popping up... and I have to keep stopping myself from banging my head against the wall every time I see it...
    Me too!! This can hurt a great deal after awhile.

  3. #6783
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Xia View Post
    Take this SD video.
    http://www.shao-lin.com/category.cfm?CategoryID=28
    And compare it with this.
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=-VQW55fdJxA
    Don't you see a big difference between the Fu Hok Seung Ying Kuen done by Chiu Chi Ling vs. the SD version?
    If you are talking about the version that the CSC site displayed in their "Advanced Black Demonstration" then yes I do. As I've said, I know SD's Tiger-Crane very well, but I have trouble recognizing that form in that demonstration.

    As far as the difference in the in the form as taught to me and Chiu Chi Ling's version, I can see the form is essentially the same, move for move. We do a low horse stance at the begining during the tension movements and the opening is slightly different in the hand positions. There's more tension in CCL's version, but not a whole lot more. There are differences, but not to the point where the form or the underlying principles are disconnected from the two.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  4. #6784
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    Quote Originally Posted by arinathos.valin View Post
    A few more thoughts on some of the recent postings... I'm on vacation and my wife's asleep, so I have a bit more time to blab on the computer.

    Some of the posters have really made a ruckus about lineage. A few SD devotees have stated that the lineage issue is not that important to them, and they can't understand why others seem to keep bashing the history of SD.

    In the TCMA culture, lineage is a BIG deal. Part of it is the Confucian ancestor worship thing, part of it is the idea that great martial artists are more likely to come from great lineages. When an outside school claims to be part of a lineage and is really not, others tend to get really hot under the collar about it. As an example, I imagine that lkfmdc, who has a traceable, impressive lineage, may unconsiously consider it an insult that such an 'inferior' art would deign to call themselves the true Shaolin inheritor. and consider it a moral obligation to point out the errors of those who have what he considers to be a false lineage-sometimes in a very direct way...

    I still am unsure of the intent of some of the anti-SD posters out there, though. If the intent is to get under the skin of some of the more devout SD practitioners, I think they are succeeding quite well. If their intent is to change minds, however, I think they're failing miserably.

    People who have invested years, sometimes decades of their life on one endeavour usually don't take kindly to people who call their effort a load of ****. Even if the evidence is rock-solid, true believers will find a way to minimize it, discount it, or ignore it. It's even easier to dismiss the evidence if the person giving the evidence is hostile or condescending. I've seen it happen with religion, ideology, party affiliation, and with martial arts. One might see the same defensiveness on lkfmdc's part if one were to confront him with the idea that his art is almost worthless, as you'd get more fitness and self defense bang-for-your-buck if you just ran a few marathons and packed a concealed firearm.

    I actually have a great deal of respect for many SDers who have seen the evidence that the anti-SDers offer, realize the validity of the arguments, and continue to train with SD because it suits their needs. I might actually be one of those had my work schedule been more compatible with the class times. The fact is that SD does indeed offer a way to keep fit, and to learn a martial art in a fun atmosphere with good people. Ultimately, that's probably what is most important. Unfortunately, all of the discrepancies, and the excuses for those discrepancies, is what keeps this forum entry chugging towards the 500 page mark...
    I appreciate your posts. As far as lineage, my respect goes back as far as I can verify. That is my teacher, his father/teacher, GM Sin The, Hiang The, GGM Ie Chang Ming and his collegues in Indonesia. After that, I don't really know so the issue becomes less important to me. If Su Kong was 'real' then great. If he wasn't and we are taught a collection of material from different parts of China and learned from different teachers who moved to Inonesia, then that's great too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  5. #6785
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Xia View Post
    I saw great danger in an iron palm attempt in one video. To me, Shaolin Do doesn’t look like Karate, to me, it just looks bad.
    Hey Xia,
    Thanks for stopping in...always enjoy your post!
    1) what iron palm video did you see.....we have an excellent iron palm training program...that is very safe....I've been doing it for a few years and it has even helped fight off the beginnings of arthritis......to look at me you would never know I do it.

  6. #6786
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    Quote Originally Posted by Judge Pen View Post
    I appreciate your posts. As far as lineage, my respect goes back as far as I can verify. That is my teacher, his father/teacher, GM Sin The, Hiang The, GGM Ie Chang Ming and his collegues in Indonesia. After that, I don't really know so the issue becomes less important to me. If Su Kong was 'real' then great. If he wasn't and we are taught a collection of material from different parts of China and learned from different teachers who moved to Inonesia, then that's great too.
    That's pretty much the way I feel JP....I also agree with TTM's statement "don't condemn an entire system based on a few bad performances"
    BQ
    Last edited by Baqualin; 08-21-2007 at 08:24 AM.

  7. #6787
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    buffets are good if you're really hungry and are low on money, but if you realy want a great meal its better to go to a reputable fine eatery that specializes in one or two particular cuisines.
    Last edited by jit fu; 08-21-2007 at 07:07 AM.

  8. #6788
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    Quote Originally Posted by jit fu View Post
    buffets are good if you're really hungry and are low on money, but if you realy want a great meal its better to go to a reputable fine eatery that specializes in one or two particular cuisines.
    Most schools out there today are buffets...even the MOST vocal against us are buffets...check out their websites.....probally even your school.....Kung Fu..Tai Chi.....MMA....BJJ....Maui Tai....Sanda......Krav magna........Wu Shu...Kempo....Wing Chung.....Mantis.....Choy Li Fu....head instructor has 10 blackbelts in all of the above and more.....that's lineage trees with a lot of limbs......and people get on us for being spread to thin....at least we've had the same basic program for 40+ years

  9. #6789
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baqualin View Post
    Most schools out there today are buffets...even the MOST vocal against us are buffets...check out their websites.....probally even your school.....Kung Fu..Tai Chi.....MMA....BJJ....Maui Tai....Sanda......Krav magna........Wu Shu...Kempo....Wing Chung.....Mantis.....Choy Li Fu....head instructor has 10 blackbelts in all of the above and more.....that's lineage trees with a lot of limbs......and people get on us for being spread to thin....at least we've had the same basic program for 40+ years
    Amen brother.
    We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a habit.
    - Aristotle

    The only way of finding the limits of the possible is by going beyond them into the impossible.
    - Arthur C. Clarke

  10. #6790
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baqualin View Post
    Most schools out there today are buffets...even the MOST vocal against us are buffets...check out their websites.....probally even your school.....Kung Fu..Tai Chi.....MMA....BJJ....Maui Tai....Sanda......Krav magna........Wu Shu...Kempo....Wing Chung.....Mantis.....Choy Li Fu....head instructor has 10 blackbelts in all of the above and more.....that's lineage trees with a lot of limbs......and people get on us for being spread to thin....at least we've had the same basic program for 40+ years
    Many, not most & certainly not all.

    Most TCMA schools teach one or two things only. Mine only teaches CLF & Yang Taiji. That's it. No other training involved. My teacher used to teach one other art until he gave it up in favor of CLF solely. No black belts, no massive lineage tree. Two things done as well as can be done & expected of a person dividing time between 2 arts with complete, unfettered training programs.

    Your same basic program for 40 years is to be commended for it's steadfastness to be sure, but steadfastness to what? A smidge of this, a crumb of that, a whiff of something else passing over the top of the pot it's all cooked in with no backbone of any single ingredient.
    Message: Due to the ongoing Recession, God has decided the light at the end of the tunnel will be shut off due to power costs. That is all.

  11. #6791
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    uhh, no. the ones who are reputable are not. when one takes 2 forms from "x" style, then 3 from another, 1 from here, another 3-4 from there, it is not possible to perform or train any correctly. every system (style) has its own methods, stances, delivery system, energy, this is a fact. one can not play them all the same way, unless you just like learning forms.

  12. #6792
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    Quote Originally Posted by jit fu View Post
    uhh, no. the ones who are reputable are not. when one takes 2 forms from "x" style, then 3 from another, 1 from here, another 3-4 from there, it is not possible to perform or train any correctly. every system (style) has its own methods, stances, delivery system, energy, this is a fact. one can not play them all the same way, unless you just like learning forms.
    Not really correct, you can take various forms from different systems to train different attributes.
    I know a Okinawan Goju guy that teaches Taiji as part of his curriculm.

    Its "easier" to take forms from different systems with the same "core" like sanchin from Goju and Sam jin ( or however you wanna spell it) from Fukien White Crane and the Iron wire from Hung Gar, its a little trickier when you are doing things in a more complexe way and looking to develop different energy pathways and structures.

    You just don't teach one until the other is "ingrained".

  13. #6793
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    everyone is entitled to there opinions...i stand by mine. say one learned wing chun for 6 months from a friend informally while at the same time learning mi zhong form his sifu for the last 2 years. he is also moon lighting at the local college learning chen tai chi 1x a week for last 2 months. sure he could try to incorporate this into that, but at the end of the day he's not at a level to do so because he isn't proficient in any of the three. even if he was at a sifu level this would be more or less chop suey. it takes a good instructor and many years of training to "get it". better to have one really sharp knife than 5 dull ones.

  14. #6794
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baqualin View Post
    at least we've had the same basic program for 40+ years
    No you haven't. Didn't the big forms explosion happen in the 80s when Sin The' came back from a trip to Indonesia?

  15. #6795
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    Quote Originally Posted by jit fu View Post
    everyone is entitled to there opinions...i stand by mine. say one learned wing chun for 6 months from a friend informally while at the same time learning mi zhong form his sifu for the last 2 years. he is also moon lighting at the local college learning chen tai chi 1x a week for last 2 months. sure he could try to incorporate this into that, but at the end of the day he's not at a level to do so because he isn't proficient in any of the three. even if he was at a sifu level this would be more or less chop suey. it takes a good instructor and many years of training to "get it". better to have one really sharp knife than 5 dull ones.
    You need to read the last part of my post:

    You just don't teach one until the other is "ingrained".

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