Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[MasterKiller]

all of the people in those clips learned long fist from respected tcma lineages as far as i know, is the only way to do long fist the way your teacher showed you?

I'm not saying my way is the only way. Most of those people are better at forms than I am.

But what I am saying is that Long Fist is supposed to be relaxed. The forms are designed to train relaxed power. That is the core principle. If you are snappy and jerky, you are being counter-productive.

My line left China in the 1940's, so it's not like I'm coming from a wushu background, either.

Sure, there are lots of ways to do things. That's what flavor is, afterall. And it's an important aspect of Chinese kung fu. But principles are principles, and individual flavor and expression should adhere to them.

In my opinion, of course. Other opinions may vary.

[MasterKiller]

Fedor doesnt have to snap his punches due to physics Mass x Velocity. he doesnt have to snap. But he looks sloppy to me that is the worst example of shadow boxing I have seen in a while. I am sure he is strong but his Boxing technique was mediocre at best. KC

Mass??? WTF???

OK, does this Superfeather weight look "snappy"? Would his Gi "pop"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-orwSN53k-M

[tattooedmonk]

Mass??? WTF???

OK, does this Superfeather weight look "snappy"? Would his Gi "pop"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-orwSN53k-M

yep.

[tattooedmonk]

I was reading on a website that Master Sin has co authored three books, I know shaolin do secrets from the temple, but what are the other two??

[bodhi warrior]

I was reading on a website that Master Sin has co authored three books, I know shaolin do secrets from the temple, but what are the other two??

One is probably the book that went along with the KET television series. I've had it since '84

[Immortal_Dragon]

Well not to try and get off topic but I am often curious and wonder why there are so many martial artists out there that want to prove "true" lineage of Shaolin? We all have our own opinions on what "real" shaolin is or what it should be. I mean the number of threads that I have come across that basically pit shaolin Do vs BSL vs Songshan Shaolin vs the rest of the TCMA world is ridiculous. I mean really all those links with videos from youtube depicting certain styles/lineages is something else.....and the people performing the forms are just students not masters...so everyone is kind of laughing and poking at the person's form. I just don't get it. Really guys a million and one people train in these styles but really only a handful probably master it.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I was reading on a website that Master Sin has co authored three books, I know shaolin do secrets from the temple, but what are the other two??

I found them in the back channels of Amazon's books a while back while doing searches...but they were out of print. I don't recall their titles, b/c it didn't really matter, since they're effectively dead, as the way print goes.

[Shaolin Wookie]

But what I am saying is that Long Fist is supposed to be relaxed. The forms are designed to train relaxed power. That is the core principle. If you are snappy and jerky, you are being counter-productive..

I can attest to this. I was learning LF from a Chinese dude, and he stressed the "harmony" of movement, never the "snap" we get in SD.

The fluidity of Longfist is really quite impressive when you see it firsthand. No doubt.

The one complaint my Longfist teacher had with me was my footwork combined with torso movement. He kept saying : "You not move harmony!", meaning I didn't stress or coordinate my weight shifts very well. He had me run through footwork drills for 3 months, teaching me bits of Longfist forms in between for reference. It was incredibly effective for conveying how to shift balance in a form. You just don't realize how much your heels come into play in driving your stance into the ground (in SD, some people don't know how to shift without raising the heel, and drive it instead with the ball of their foot, and wind up cross-legged [and not just beginners, sad to say], which drives the waist turn, and drives the torso, then the arm, until you take 3 months to focus on that single idea. (The only focus I'd seen in SD on that issue up to that point, was at green belt in the short stick form, and it just wasn't the same). IMy Longfist teacher really improved my body mechanics, I believe, and I still do his footwork drills to this day, and sometimes show one of them to SD guys I think need to work on their footwork. This is part of what caused my indecision on whether or not to stick with SD back in February. I left it up to GM The's demo in ATL. My eyes almost never left his feet. HE had the same exact footwork. I knew the master of my school had them. But I had to make sure teh source of it all did. Somewhere, these simple principles had gotten glossed over, lost according to influx of material, or simply had stopped getting transmitted (due to time constraints and class format with large class to few teacher ratios that sometimes happen). So I figured some of the sifus and teachers had never received some of this instruction. I can look at a few of them, and just know that if they took lessons from my old LF teacher, they'd be in for the same 3 months of footwork drills. Well, that's the breaks of large schools. When I was with Longfist, it was myself and this other dude with the teacher for 2 hours nonstop. The senior students pretty much took care of themselves. 2 hrs. a week, and still great instruction. Although I might not have cared for the fact they sucked at sparring and fighting, they were excellent at forms and structure--and he'd coached some forms champs, so that was his focus. Not mine, though. His few apps were pretty.....idealistic.

From an SD perspective, MK certainly knows what he's talking about.

[Shaolin Wookie]

I had some money to kill, and I was a bit curious as to its contents, but I picked up that lecture GM Sin gave to the Austin school in 2003 off the SDA website a couple of weeks ago. I know this is going to spark some negative debate, but it is out there for public view (and many of you won't bother to buy it), so here are some basic ideas to ponder. For SD guys, it's an interesting view, and it answered many of my questions as to the structure and history (Sin The's relation to it) in the US:

Some points GM The' addressed:

1. the explosion of forms in the late seventies and early eighties (brought up by MK, I believe)

2. the root of the snap

3. Cross-training

(some of this is just inference, so senior SD guys can verify it or debunk it as they like---as I'm just trying to piece it together from what info I can get my hands on)

1. From what I've heard, when SD began, Sin The' only taught a couple of things. Senior guys on this forum can probably verify this. As you moved up in rank, he taught more material. But until the 70's, the forms count was probably pretty low. Then, when he began the process of purchasing his sports complex in Lexington, he asked his students for a vote of confidence and life insurance policies (optional, but would influence the insurance companies to back him in his business endeavor). They signed on. With enough enrollment from his students, the insurance company backed his sports complex. In return, he said he'd teach out more material, because it was a scratch-my-back-scratch-your-back kind of agreement. (also, in the vid, he talks about how he obtained the sports complex, and all the ingenuity he used as a niaive (his words) young man trying to realize a dream).

This is, I gather, when the forms boom happened. GM Sin said it in this lecture (as well as being pretty honest about the obtainment and eventual failure of teh complex---and his reaction to it. He was really honest in the lecture with his reaction to it, and his emotions--which showed a lot of character). People got their hands on much more material. I figure this is also where the shift in focus happened. With so much student emphasis on obtaining the forms they could, his recent receipt of GM Ie's 10th black rank, and the kind of contractual obligation to fork over material for their backing of his sports complex--the focus probably began to shift to quantity over specificity.

With the spread of SD and CSC, as it got further from the source in Kentucky, the core of the system changed, and many of the training principles were watered down, b/c students were now joining in the "forms boom" period, and had never languished with focusing on small bits of material for long periods of time.

Now, he also mentions the break with his brother, and how he felt betrayed at the time, and also how he got over it and came to terms with it. But he also mentions a black belt in some SW US state (I forget which) who began teaching SD without the approval of GM Sin or SD, under a different name. There was a lawsuit, b/c GM Sin felt betrayed that this guy could go and hand out belts to his students with SD's material, without having been approved by GM Sin. (Just like I wouldn't teach literature without a degree, or a teacher's certificate). So I can understand. He eventually worked something out with the ex-student on the side once he had effectively won the case (initially, he was going to lose, but then cited "trade secrets" as a legal infraction, and sealed the case), and settled it without legal repercussions (jailtime on the defendant's part). This led to the standardization of what SD and CSC teach from brown-belt on down, and led to a copyright on the material by GM Sin, so nobody else would feel empowered to teach without his approval.

Most likely, this led to a kind of apprehension about teaching "the good stuff" to just anyone on GM Sin's part. Notice, for instance, he has yet to teach Golden Snake (his master system) to any SD student. Perhaps he will at a later date, or maybe he'll keep it in the family. WHo knows? Nor have I seen his hurricane kick training, one of this other specialites....or any of the others on his Indonesian GM certificate. Only in the past decade did he start teaching the 4 Golden Leopards forms, which are the pre-req for Liu Shing (one of his speciatly styles). This after teaching for 50 years. He did teach some rarer sets as the core of the higher level training (like Hua, and 8 Immortals), which are rare in the US, and sometimes elsewhere. But these probably weren't his personal best forms, and didn't care to guard them as highly, yet thought they were integral to making strides towards higher understanding for the students. The high number of forms comes from his seminar forms and styles. He has gM Ie's notes to help him remember (although, he does have quite an impressive memory, I've heard [even from detractors]). These aren't his specialty forms, and they're just out there for those who want them.

BTW, I've seen some Hua, and it looks wicked (from a conditioning standpoint). To see some BB's run through it several times in class while I struggle w/ something infinitely easier is impressive.

All in all, I figure that's kind of what contributed to the current debate we have over the number of forms. Most of the forms are taught in seminar format on the side, and you don't have to learn them. But if you want to learn some knife work (I do!), that's how you get your introduction to it early. I know GM Sin's brother has knife work as part of his core system, as well as the TAi Peng system. We only have 1 Tai Peng form in SD. Clearly, this wasn't GM Sin's major focus in his art.

[Shaolin Wookie]

2. The snap.

I've never encountered this much in CMA, but GM The' talks about the paramount importance of the spine in generating power. Generally, all you ever hear talk about in SD and CMA is the tan'tien. But GM Sin talks about how GGM Ie taught the importance of the spine in generating power. Whether we like it or not (Me like), the strucutre of our forms is more catered to generating whipping power from the spine, rather than the tan'tien (not talking about internal). I can see how the two things are mutually reinforcing, and could be lumped together. But I can also look at all my material and say, yeah, it's a lot of spine-driven stuff. The tan-tien seems like a secondary thing. This is probably an indication of outside principles (outside of CMA) being emphasized in SD. He states quite clearly that the spine is what is important in deriving snap. I'd never really heard that in the other CMA's I'd trained. If you do the I Chin Ching, I think you can really see this.

3. Cross-training.

At some point, GM Sin accepted a challenge and was stalemated by an "internalist" on Java, or something like that. He wound up cross-training in meditation, etc. with the guy in order to learn some of his secrets. (He also says the guy was a little wrong in the head). GM Ie found out and wasn't very pleased, b/c it was done without permission. So, GM Ie began teaching GM Sin the internal arts. If I understood correctly, this training in IMA with SD material began about 3 years before GM Sin left for the U. of Kentucky.

Now, any one of us can see the logistical problems of this. GM Sin is a remarkable athelete, and he lived with his teacher in the summers, (and occasinally returned to Indonesia), so it aided in his learning of the IMA's at a faster rate than some might think possible. But still, even so. He'd have needed waaaaay more tiime. So, when he came to America, I surmise he built on his foundation with whatever material he could get his hands on--private lessons from internal masters, books, vids, whatever. This probably led to the hybridization of his internal arts (detractors will invariably say "b@stardization".

These are just my assumptions based on what I've found. GM Sin put a lot of stuff out there honestly that I didn't expect to heart about, and I found it interesting as it debunks much debate, and helps clarify some issues in SD. So I think it's rather unfair to say he's hiding anything. Some of you just aren't in the position (not that I am, or anything) to hear him.

I'm tired of typing, so I'm going to stop. I have to study (grad school's a trip, man! But it's the only way I can join Takeshi's Ninjitsu commune!), it's early, and I'm at work (well, I'm at work, but there's no work. So it's really like being locked in a room with internet, a DVD player, and my study materials....LOL).

Flame on. I'm sure this'll generate some comments.

[arinathos.valin]

Wookie...

Great post... thanks for the insight!

[MasterKiller]

2. The snap.

I've never encountered this much in CMA, but GM The' talks about the paramount importance of the spine in generating power. Generally, all you ever hear talk about in SD and CMA is the tan'tien. But GM Sin talks about how GGM Ie taught the importance of the spine in generating power. Whether we like it or not (Me like), the strucutre of our forms is more catered to generating whipping power from the spine, rather than the tan'tien (not talking about internal). I can see how the two things are mutually reinforcing, and could be lumped together. But I can also look at all my material and say, yeah, it's a lot of spine-driven stuff. The tan-tien seems like a secondary thing. This is probably an indication of outside principles (outside of CMA) being emphasized in SD. He states quite clearly that the spine is what is important in deriving snap. I'd never really heard that in the other CMA's I'd trained. If you do the I Chin Ching, I think you can really see this.

Spine coiling is really an internal principle. You don't hear about it too much in specialized external styles.

The one complaint my Longfist teacher had with me was my footwork combined with torso movement. He kept saying : "You not move harmony!", meaning I didn't stress or coordinate my weight shifts very well.

It's sometimes referred to as the Six Harmonies--shoulders, hips, and knees (sometimes also defined as hand, torso, and foot) all work together and counter-balance one another.

[Royal Dragon]

So I can understand. He eventually worked something out with the ex-student on the side once he had effectively won the case (initially, he was going to lose, but then cited "trade secrets" as a legal infraction, and sealed the case), and settled it without legal repercussions (jailtime on the defendant's part). This led to the standardization of what SD and CSC teach from brown-belt on down, and led to a copyright on the material by GM Sin, so nobody else would feel empowered to teach without his approval.

Reply]
You cannot copywrite movement I think it's BS.

[MasterKiller]

So I can understand. He eventually worked something out with the ex-student on the side once he had effectively won the case (initially, he was going to lose, but then cited "trade secrets" as a legal infraction, and sealed the case), and settled it without legal repercussions (jailtime on the defendant's part). This led to the standardization of what SD and CSC teach from brown-belt on down, and led to a copyright on the material by GM Sin, so nobody else would feel empowered to teach without his approval.

Reply]
You cannot copywrite movement I think it's BS.

Yeah, this is BS. I trained MMA with a student (who was also an SD black belt) of the guy he sued.

Sin The' lost. There was no jail time.

[Shaolin Wookie]

So I can understand. He eventually worked something out with the ex-student on the side once he had effectively won the case (initially, he was going to lose, but then cited "trade secrets" as a legal infraction, and sealed the case), and settled it without legal repercussions (jailtime on the defendant's part). This led to the standardization of what SD and CSC teach from brown-belt on down, and led to a copyright on the material by GM Sin, so nobody else would feel empowered to teach without his approval.

Reply]
You cannot copywrite movement I think it's BS.

Exactly. That's why he went the route of saying the guy was stealing "trade secrets". It wasn't malicious. He just wanted the same respect he felt was wanting. That you shouldn't teach without your teacher's permission. If it was malicious, he would have pressed to get teh guy in jail.

BTW, the guy in the case now teaches some kind of karate, and no SD material. Sounds to me like he lost.