View Poll Results: What to do about the 'Is Shaolin-Do for real?' thread

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Thread: Is Shaolin-Do for real?

  1. #7171
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwaichang View Post
    I long for the old days when people trained with each other and taught for the love of the art no judging just training. That to me is how you learn. KC
    But there's always going to be contracts and monthly charges so long as schools persist.

    The coolest setup was with my first Longfist teacher. Low fees, since he taught out of a TKD/Karate school. But you got very little schooltime (1 hr. a week), LOL. It was nearly impossible to get anywhere, so I picked a new Longfist teacher.

    I like the contracts, in a way. It helps a club keep going, gets you lots of floor time, and everything else.

    Even my capoeira school has contracts. Everyone's got 'em, if the teacher is a full-time teacher.

  2. #7172
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    My 1st teacher taught us 2-3 x per week 3 hours then required us to train on our own as well. He loved the arts and taught to enjoy it. Contracts are for those who dont have the heart to continue w/o a lrge $$$ commitment to keep going if that is what you need to keep training more power to you. KC
    A Fool is Born every Day !

  3. #7173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citong Shifu View Post
    What I would like to hear about is SD's Fukien Shaolin Louhan sets (1 through 5 and various two man sets / weapons), Shaolin Quan sets ( Sh. 12, 24, 36, & 72 / two man sets and weapons) & Fukien Shaolin Di Shu / Ditang (1 through 4, two man sets, & weapons). After all, these 3 styles were created at Shaolin and were the core training styles at Fukien Temple. SD has many forms in its style, but I haven't seen the true shaolin forms noted from Fukien Temple. However, through some research on various articles I have found alot of forms (like the bird sets, etc) that are more common to some of the Okinawan karate styles. Many shaolin sets I've seen/read from SD websites were non-shaolin, but styles of various long fist systems, etc. The list goes on. I really dont care one way or another. I just find SD interesting.... If you guys have the three Fukien core styles, I would be greatly interested in hearing about them and the names of sets practiced...

    Thanks.
    They're not done in the same way. I've watched some Shaolin Lohan sets, and done some Longfist, myself. When you watch some Lohan (although, the SD Lohan sets are really Tan Tui--[there's confusion as to the origin, depending on the source you tax for SD references]--and they look like someone took various sequences of tan tui, chopped them into small bits, and taught them as fighting training sequences in a series of small movements. They're almost exact--I can see them clearly in Tan Tui.) As for the Longfist and Shaolin Quan; you won't find those anywhere in SD in a format you'd recognize, unless they teach them above the 5th degree level. I've done some Shaolin Quan, and it's not like SD at all in terms of forms.

    The Tan Tui, however, is very much the same. The sweeps, and combinations where you pull + punch (pull with left hand, which chambers, and straight or reverse punch with right), and kick (in SD, called a hit-kick, or a twist-hit-and-kick combo) are very prevalent. Also, the transitions are pretty much exact.

    They're taught in short sequences (called short forms) in order to stress how to move from one stance to the next, and how to apply the principles in combat (one hand is always chambering while the other one is striking, and it heightens your awareness of what your weapons are based on your body posture). Some people do them more like karate; others more like Tan Tui. However, SD does not teach them as a single form....at least not anymore. They're considered the core of the system, and really do set one up for just about everything one's going to learn in the system, more or less.

    Whenever I watch a chop-sockey flick and I see a group of guys in a courtyard arranged in rows with a teacher shouting out orders or move names, and the guys do a short sequence of movements (unlike the usual CMA forms)---that always reminds me of our short forms.

    If I had the editing skills and a camera, I'd film myself doing the short forms, then place them side-by-side with small clips of a tan tui performance to show where they occur. (also, Ancestor's Fist has many of the same movements). I've seen them a bunch of times, but you'll just have to take my word for it, b/c I don't have the time or money to do so.

  4. #7174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaolin Wookie View Post
    But there's always going to be contracts and monthly charges so long as schools persist.

    The coolest setup was with my first Longfist teacher. Low fees, since he taught out of a TKD/Karate school. But you got very little schooltime (1 hr. a week), LOL. It was nearly impossible to get anywhere, so I picked a new Longfist teacher.

    I like the contracts, in a way. It helps a club keep going, gets you lots of floor time, and everything else.

    Even my capoeira school has contracts. Everyone's got 'em, if the teacher is a full-time teacher.
    It's hard for any full-time school to exist without contracts and billing services. The goal is to have full-time time training and that takes money. I see where it may come across as a sale out, but unless your going to do this out of your backyard, etc, it just wont happen. I couldnt keep my doors open full-time without business contracts and billing, its just that simple. Business is business and the martial arts is martial arts! Full-time schools need to focus on both.
    The Style Doesn't Make The Master Famous. The Master Makes The Style Famous!

  5. #7175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaolin Wookie View Post
    They're not done in the same way. I've watched some Shaolin Lohan sets, and done some Longfist, myself. When you watch some Lohan (although, the SD Lohan sets are really Tan Tui--[there's confusion as to the origin, depending on the source you tax for SD references]--and they look like someone took various sequences of tan tui, chopped them into small bits, and taught them as fighting training sequences in a series of small movements. They're almost exact--I can see them clearly in Tan Tui.) As for the Longfist and Shaolin Quan; you won't find those anywhere in SD in a format you'd recognize, unless they teach them above the 5th degree level. I've done some Shaolin Quan, and it's not like SD at all in terms of forms.

    The Tan Tui, however, is very much the same. The sweeps, and combinations where you pull + punch (pull with left hand, which chambers, and straight or reverse punch with right), and kick (in SD, called a hit-kick, or a twist-hit-and-kick combo) are very prevalent. Also, the transitions are pretty much exact.

    They're taught in short sequences (called short forms) in order to stress how to move from one stance to the next, and how to apply the principles in combat (one hand is always chambering while the other one is striking, and it heightens your awareness of what your weapons are based on your body posture). Some people do them more like karate; others more like Tan Tui. However, SD does not teach them as a single form....at least not anymore. They're considered the core of the system, and really do set one up for just about everything one's going to learn in the system, more or less.

    Whenever I watch a chop-sockey flick and I see a group of guys in a courtyard arranged in rows with a teacher shouting out orders or move names, and the guys do a short sequence of movements (unlike the usual CMA forms)---that always reminds me of our short forms.

    If I had the editing skills and a camera, I'd film myself doing the short forms, then place them side-by-side with small clips of a tan tui performance to show where they occur. (also, Ancestor's Fist has many of the same movements). I've seen them a bunch of times, but you'll just have to take my word for it, b/c I don't have the time or money to do so.
    Thanks SW.
    The Style Doesn't Make The Master Famous. The Master Makes The Style Famous!

  6. #7176
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwaichang View Post
    My 1st teacher taught us 2-3 x per week 3 hours then required us to train on our own as well. He loved the arts and taught to enjoy it. Contracts are for those who dont have the heart to continue w/o a lrge $$$ commitment to keep going if that is what you need to keep training more power to you. KC
    Yeah, but I'll gladly pay a contract to have open access to a school w/ instruction for up to a possible total of 17+ hours during the week (and that's if I'm only doing "external" work). When I attend, I can stay for the class for my rank, and every rank below me. Generally, the days I go, I get 3-4 hrs. of classtime, 3 hours of instruction. I try to go at least 3 days a week. That's 12 hours where I have instruction, or partners to work with, and killer workouts. And the rest of the week is solo time. I hear people complain that they don't feel they get the depth they'd like, but it's generally b/c once they move up a rank, they cease going to lower belt classes, and so their material never develops. I know some of you SD guys have seen it, too. Some BB's Tai Peng Sin Kune that's about as good as the first month they learned it...which never progressed....or more likely Lohan Chien. And then they hit brown belt, and they don't practice lower belt material. And then they hit black belt, and since they're never going to be tested again on that stuff unless they hit very high ranks, they let it all go down the drain.

    It's always a matter of who works hard at what they have. It has nothing to do with contracts, lack of teacher enthusiasm, etc.

    But since I have the contract, I can take advantage of it, get the best for my money and time, and practice until I keel over from exhaustion.

    That's the benefit of having a contract; and to be honest, I swear that's the reason they're in place in an idealistic sense (of course they have the monetary obligation as well.). If there are people willing to take them up on all they can give, you get dedicated students (not necessarily to the school, per say, so much as to the hard work it encourages). I used to abuse gyms in the same way...LOL.
    Last edited by Shaolin Wookie; 09-08-2007 at 09:09 AM.

  7. #7177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaolin Wookie View Post
    I hear people complain that they don't feel they get the depth they'd like, but it's generally b/c once they move up a rank, they cease going to lower belt classes, and so their material never develops. I know some of you SD guys have seen it, too. Some BB's Tai Peng Sin Kune that's about as good as the first month they learned it...which never progressed....or more likely Lohan Chien. And then they hit brown belt, and they don't practice lower belt material. And then they hit black belt, and since they're never going to be tested again on that stuff unless they hit very high ranks, they let it all go down the drain..
    But then, I've heard this grousing and seen this take place in every school I've visited. Wing Chun is essentially the easiest in form. It's so simple; it's the fighting principles and actions that are difficult. Even so, I've seen students of Wing Chun schools butcher Wing Chun forms. IF you can butcher a Wing Chun form.....then hell......

    The thing is: We're not Chinese. We have jobs. We have lives. We have school. We're not full-time kung-fu students, and even then, kung-fu is just recreation. So it's not like everyone's going to look like a wushu champion from a Chinese National forms tourney. They'll look about as well as they do with what level of commitment the students have to what they're learning. Some don't have it. It's not a bad thing. They're still getting something out of it.

  8. #7178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citong Shifu View Post
    Thanks SW.
    I forgot to address Ditang. From what I know, there isn't any Ditang, per say. The black tigers have quite a few leaping falls (the kind that make you cringe when you see them). Some of the cranes have the ground motions. In Hua Fist, you get those leaping outstretched falls. And then in drunken, there's the same stuff. So you get the falls and everything variously, but not in Ditang format. And then they teach the usual breakfalls, aerials, cartwheels, and rolls variously, depending on your rank.

  9. #7179
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citong Shifu View Post
    What I would like to hear about is SD's Fukien Shaolin Louhan sets (1 through 5 and various two man sets / weapons), Shaolin Quan sets ( Sh. 12, 24, 36, & 72 / two man sets and weapons) & Fukien Shaolin Di Shu / Ditang (1 through 4, two man sets, & weapons). After all, these 3 styles were created at Shaolin and were the core training styles at Fukien Temple. SD has many forms in its style, but I haven't seen the true shaolin forms noted from Fukien Temple. However, through some research on various articles I have found alot of forms (like the bird sets, etc) that are more common to some of the Okinawan karate styles. Many shaolin sets I've seen/read from SD websites were non-shaolin, but styles of various long fist systems, etc. The list goes on. I really dont care one way or another. I just find SD interesting.... If you guys have the three Fukien core styles, I would be greatly interested in hearing about them and the names of sets practiced...

    Thanks.
    SD/CSC doesn't have the sets you're asking about, at least not in the current form you know them in. There may be material that is similar, though.
    Bird sets are not common to any Okinawan karate style, especially not the ones found in SD. SD bird forms are like somewhere between a northern and southern shaolin style, from what I can determine. They have a lot of elements (which may not be obvious depending on how they are taught/performed), that you might see in the southern long styles like Hung Ga and CLF, and a few movements that are northern shaolin-ish (the hooking beak movements behind the back, and wide spread arms/crouching...not a very good description).
    There is actually a lot of ditang/ground work in the forms, though instead of being taught all in a few sets, it is spread through many different forms in little bits. The white crane set taught at brown belt actually has ground work (in 2 out of the 3forms)...Lian wu zhang is also taught at brown level, which is a basic form of Shandong ditang quan according to Sal (though SD may not perform it the same or "correctly" according to northern methods). The Shandong black tiger set (1-4), has ground work in 2 of the four forms. Lots of other forms have ground work as well...the drunken forms, hua quan, and the tang lang form that is taught, in addition to others that aren't a part of the normal curriculum.

    I'm not sure I agree that what we call Luohan is actually tan tui, though it does have similarities, I can see why some teachers decided to call it that. From what I udnerstand, GM The never called it Tan Tui. It is more similar to northern shaolin than to the southern luohan forms, I think.
    I do not believe the curriculum of SD/CSC represents the curriculum of any historical temple. (Honestly, I'm not sure any modern style does...but some might be closer than others) The people claiming that as a fact on behalf of SD or CSC are misinformed and/or are using it as a device to attract students. I would call it a mixed style with influences from various teachers from different regions of China and Indonesia. There's some things drawn from Shantung for sure, ditang and black tiger, hua quan and probably the luohan patterns/tan tui...some things from southern styles, like san he quan and maybe the birds and cranes, the five animals and a lot of the weapons. Don't know if the drunken set is considered northern or southern, or neither.

    Anyways...SD/CSC doesn't have the same sets as modern shaolin, either northern or southern. Many of its forms may be related, but several generations removed.
    "I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udun! Go back to the shadow, you cannot pass!"

  10. #7180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leto View Post
    I do not believe the curriculum of SD/CSC represents the curriculum of any historical temple. (Honestly, I'm not sure any modern style does...but some might be closer than others) The people claiming that as a fact on behalf of SD or CSC are misinformed and/or are using it as a device to attract students. I would call it a mixed style with influences from various teachers from different regions of China and Indonesia.

    I find it interesting, that if most accounts are true, the original school was called Central Shaolin. Depending on the connotation, "central" could modify Shaolin in a couple of different ways.

  11. #7181
    Quote Originally Posted by Woof View Post
    You frequently do tell with whom you have studied. You name drop both GM Sin The and the Soards all the f'ing time.

    Since you train from dusk till dawn, teach for FREE and now claim an aversion to all things monetary, have you considered entering the Shaolin Ninjitsu Commune?
    I studied with DS, SS as well as GMS among others. This is a fact . I am not name dropping . It used to be that you did not go around using you masters name to gain fame recognition or fortune . It was a privilege to learn about your arts history and from whom it came from.

    Now it is information that is sold to make money and satisfy the ego.

    I believe that to many people focus on this and do not spend enough time training . The art speaks for it's self.

    This is about all you will get for the last comment.......
    Last edited by tattooedmonk; 09-08-2007 at 12:30 PM.

  12. #7182
    Quote Originally Posted by bodhi warrior View Post
    It sounds like what you got goin on is the way it used to be in the oldin days, back in indonesia. Or at least the way it was explained to me. I like to idea of people getting together and working on stuff and making it work.
    Thanx. I have an old school philosophy and mindset about practicing and teaching the art.

  13. #7183
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwaichang View Post
    If I learn your art and teach it with out acknowledging you or giving a small% then I am stealing from you . That is how I feel .
    Well, good luck with that. If I pay to college and then graduate and get a job, I'm not required to send any money to my old professors, am I? How about build an alter to them in my bedroom?

    Once you learn the material, it's yours.

    If you are the kind of teacher that is worried about your students not 'honoring' you after they leave your school, then you should be more discriminating to whom you teach.

  14. #7184
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterKiller View Post
    Well, good luck with that. If I pay to college and then graduate and get a job, I'm not required to send any money to my old professors, am I? How about build an alter to them in my bedroom?

    Once you learn the material, it's yours.
    .
    Word........

  15. #7185
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    So you are not part of an Alumni or school group from college. You dont have a bumper sticker that says my child and money go to so and so. You dont have your certificates from your teachers showing rank ?? or pics of your teachers up in the school like Funikoshi GMS etc. Are You are trying to be another Bruce Lee but even he said where and who he was taught by. I guess that is why so many want to be's are teaching their own style. What do you call your school ?? Way of the stolen fist ??? KC
    A Fool is Born every Day !

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