View Poll Results: What to do about the 'Is Shaolin-Do for real?' thread

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Thread: Is Shaolin-Do for real?

  1. #7276
    Quote Originally Posted by bodhi warrior View Post
    My understanding is that the bird forms were created by GMS. Not the cranes but the birds at brown belt level.
    This is one of the problems as I see it within the System. I was taught over 15 years ago that they were some of the oldest forms in our collection. The history of these forms should be documented and taught at the time of the instruction of the forms so there is no misunderstanding, misinformation perpetuated and the watering down of material.

  2. #7277
    Quote Originally Posted by sean_stonehart View Post
    Nope... except on how to order Pho.
    I used to go to this place here in LA ( San Fernando Valley)with Master Sin ( and students of the school) called Pho So #1 . This place kicks @$$. Do you get beef , pork, or shrimp in yours?? I like it relly hot . That Vietnamese hot sauce is the bomb!

  3. #7278
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    Quote Originally Posted by bodhi warrior View Post
    My understanding is that the bird forms were created by GMS. Not the cranes but the birds at brown belt level.
    Who told you that? I'm not saying it isn't true, I just wonder, since there is such a huge difference in stories. Can baqualin or KC or any of the long-timers verify that? I'm sure the definitive answer is, as is mostly the case, "He started teaching it one day. He didn't tell us where it came from, and we didn't ask, so no one knows."

    Whether he created them or not, it has southern elements. The truth might be in between, as is so often the case, like having made heavy modifications to forms seen or learned somewhere.

    This is what on SD site says about it
    "The bird styles of Shaolin were made famous at the Omei Temple. The original style, the Shaolin Bird, was a conglomerate system - the Tai Peng system – combining the natures of many birds into one system, blending balance and grace with powerful leg and hand techniques. Out of the Omei Temple evolved the famous White Crane system, with its rapid leg attacks, open finger techniques and the infighting of Wing Chun. From this same system came the legendary Eagle Claw system with its deadly hands and flying techniques. Over the centuries new styles with specific techniques were brought into the Omei system, styles such as the Black Crane, the Phoenix, the Swallow, and the Golden **** or Chicken." from http://sdlouisville.com/brochure.htm

    The only reference besides SD that I can find with the term "shaolin bird" is from a book by Villari, written in 1986, where he lists various animal styles from shaolin. The list is suspiciously similar to the one propagated by SD (with 10,000 bees and golden centipede, coming from various temples) So where did this info come from? What document or person provided this information originally, I wonder?

    "Shaolin Bird style is one of the older fighting styles, being derived from the very old Lo Han style by way of the later China Hand style that seems to form the basis of much of the familiar Korean and Okinawan styles. (Many of the movements in Okinawan karate and such styles as Tang Soo Do closely resemble movements in China Hand and Shaolin Bird styles).

    In Shaolin Bird style the hard, linear strikes and kicks of Lo-Han and China Hand first begin to acquire some of the circularity and fluidity that is characteristic of many later Chinese styles.

    The strategic assumption is Shaolin Bird style is that the opponent is larger and stronger. The Bird stylist compensates by leaping in to deliver a flurry of strikes, and then leaping back out of range; or, again, by goading the opponent into a charge and sidestepping while striking. Bird style relies on quick transitions between low and high attacks and stances, sudden reversals of direction, long-range jumps to cover ground quickly, and well-developed stamina. Bird forms emphasize elbows and finger thrusts to soft targets."

    http://www.urbin.net/EWW/MA/KEMPO/animals.html

    What is the truth of the "shaolin bird"? Did Villari ever learn from Sin The, or hang out with him?
    Last edited by Leto; 09-12-2007 at 01:26 PM.
    "I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udun! Go back to the shadow, you cannot pass!"

  4. #7279
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leto View Post
    Who told you that? I'm not saying it isn't true, I just wonder, since there is such a huge difference in stories. Can baqualin or KC or any of the long-timers verify that? I'm sure the definitive answer is, as is mostly the case, "He started teaching it one day. He didn't tell us where it came from, and we didn't ask, so no one knows."

    Whether he created them or not, it has southern elements. The truth might be in between, as is so often the case, like having made heavy modifications to forms seen or learned somewhere.

    This is what on SD site says about it
    "The bird styles of Shaolin were made famous at the Omei Temple. The original style, the Shaolin Bird, was a conglomerate system - the Tai Peng system – combining the natures of many birds into one system, blending balance and grace with powerful leg and hand techniques. Out of the Omei Temple evolved the famous White Crane system, with its rapid leg attacks, open finger techniques and the infighting of Wing Chun. From this same system came the legendary Eagle Claw system with its deadly hands and flying techniques. Over the centuries new styles with specific techniques were brought into the Omei system, styles such as the Black Crane, the Phoenix, the Swallow, and the Golden **** or Chicken." from http://sdlouisville.com/brochure.htm

    The only reference besides SD that I can find with the term "shaolin bird" is from a book by Villari, written in 1986, where he lists various animal styles from shaolin. The list is suspiciously similar to the one propagated by SD (with 10,000 bees and golden centipede, coming from various temples) So where did this info come from? What document or person provided this information originally, I wonder?

    "Shaolin Bird style is one of the older fighting styles, being derived from the very old Lo Han style by way of the later China Hand style that seems to form the basis of much of the familiar Korean and Okinawan styles. (Many of the movements in Okinawan karate and such styles as Tang Soo Do closely resemble movements in China Hand and Shaolin Bird styles).

    In Shaolin Bird style the hard, linear strikes and kicks of Lo-Han and China Hand first begin to acquire some of the circularity and fluidity that is characteristic of many later Chinese styles.

    The strategic assumption is Shaolin Bird style is that the opponent is larger and stronger. The Bird stylist compensates by leaping in to deliver a flurry of strikes, and then leaping back out of range; or, again, by goading the opponent into a charge and sidestepping while striking. Bird style relies on quick transitions between low and high attacks and stances, sudden reversals of direction, long-range jumps to cover ground quickly, and well-developed stamina. Bird forms emphasize elbows and finger thrusts to soft targets."

    http://www.urbin.net/EWW/MA/KEMPO/animals.html

    What is the truth of the "shaolin bird"? Did Villari ever learn from Sin The, or hang out with him?
    If you look at their forms and other stuff, it seems to hint heavily at "no". I've seen the SD list of temples and stuff repeated variously on several websites, and always suspect they're just copying them out of the book (especially when you look at the dates of the sites). But who knows.....? Sounds like the description of the birds. How bout asking one of those ex-Vilari guys?

    Just wondering....are you guys not seeing direct movements in that Vietnamese vid w/ our birds? In a couple places, if you substitute a push w/ a finger thrust, you get the same thing, and entire sequences almost copied move-for-move, and they seem to do a forward sidehand strike (kind of like the result of a flourish in a short form), rather than the elbow finger thrust, and their footwork for the retreat is slightly more linear than our jumping retreat into a broken leg, but they're all the same movements, and have the same flavor. Not to mention the rampant use of elbows at one point in the form, and all the circle blocking. Hell, the salute/bow before the second form, which correlates to "Second Bird", has the same distinction as those hand motions in the "bird bows" left hand fist, right hand open (only, theirs are both open). And the jumping intro to the "second bird" parallel is the same thing, only varying in count, and where the pushes/finger thrusts occur.

    It's not even a case of imagination, or imprinting something onto something else. I saw the vid and was like.......hey.......that's the birds, no dobut about it.

    I mean, if we're going to contend that GMS made them up based on some stuff he knew, we'd have to say he just filled in some gaps in something that was already there. He was building on something.

    I just think it's one of those outside influences, or something. Some kind of Vietnamese interpretation of "Shaolin" influencing part of our art. Or maybe just Little Saigon, CA.....LOL....
    Last edited by Shaolin Wookie; 09-12-2007 at 01:45 PM.

  5. #7280
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    I would say, just for the elements of structure, tempo, striking, and general floorplan usage of the forms, (although their stances were kind of, by our standards, bad [but that might not be their focus]), theirs look remarkably similar to ours.

    Would be interesting to pinpoint this school, and find more vids for comparison.

  6. #7281
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    I don't think the material is actually in or from kempo. I just wonder what book everyone got their information from, or who passed that down. Is everyone copying the SD story?
    I definately see what you're talking about in the Vietnamese forms, there's too much similar to discount. I don't know if much more than that can come of it, unless we can talk to someone who knows that style and those forms, and knows its history.
    "I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udun! Go back to the shadow, you cannot pass!"

  7. #7282
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leto View Post
    I don't think the material is actually in or from kempo. I just wonder what book everyone got their information from, or who passed that down. Is everyone copying the SD story?
    I definately see what you're talking about in the Vietnamese forms, there's too much similar to discount. I don't know if much more than that can come of it, unless we can talk to someone who knows that style and those forms, and knows its history.
    or can give us the gist of that intro, at least.

  8. #7283
    Quote Originally Posted by Leto View Post
    Who told you that? I'm not saying it isn't true, I just wonder, since there is such a huge difference in stories. Can baqualin or KC or any of the long-timers verify that? I'm sure the definitive answer is, as is mostly the case, "He started teaching it one day. He didn't tell us where it came from, and we didn't ask, so no one knows."

    Whether he created them or not, it has southern elements. The truth might be in between, as is so often the case, like having made heavy modifications to forms seen or learned somewhere.

    This is what on SD site says about it
    "The bird styles of Shaolin were made famous at the Omei Temple. The original style, the Shaolin Bird, was a conglomerate system - the Tai Peng system – combining the natures of many birds into one system, blending balance and grace with powerful leg and hand techniques. Out of the Omei Temple evolved the famous White Crane system, with its rapid leg attacks, open finger techniques and the infighting of Wing Chun. From this same system came the legendary Eagle Claw system with its deadly hands and flying techniques. Over the centuries new styles with specific techniques were brought into the Omei system, styles such as the Black Crane, the Phoenix, the Swallow, and the Golden **** or Chicken." from http://sdlouisville.com/brochure.htm

    The only reference besides SD that I can find with the term "shaolin bird" is from a book by Villari, written in 1986, where he lists various animal styles from shaolin. The list is suspiciously similar to the one propagated by SD (with 10,000 bees and golden centipede, coming from various temples) So where did this info come from? What document or person provided this information originally, I wonder?

    "Shaolin Bird style is one of the older fighting styles, being derived from the very old Lo Han style by way of the later China Hand style that seems to form the basis of much of the familiar Korean and Okinawan styles. (Many of the movements in Okinawan karate and such styles as Tang Soo Do closely resemble movements in China Hand and Shaolin Bird styles).

    In Shaolin Bird style the hard, linear strikes and kicks of Lo-Han and China Hand first begin to acquire some of the circularity and fluidity that is characteristic of many later Chinese styles.

    The strategic assumption is Shaolin Bird style is that the opponent is larger and stronger. The Bird stylist compensates by leaping in to deliver a flurry of strikes, and then leaping back out of range; or, again, by goading the opponent into a charge and sidestepping while striking. Bird style relies on quick transitions between low and high attacks and stances, sudden reversals of direction, long-range jumps to cover ground quickly, and well-developed stamina. Bird forms emphasize elbows and finger thrusts to soft targets."

    http://www.urbin.net/EWW/MA/KEMPO/animals.html

    What is the truth of the "shaolin bird"? Did Villari ever learn from Sin The, or hang out with him?
    I believe this was copied off of Master Groom"s older site info.

  9. #7284
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leto View Post
    So the style would be Thieu Lam style from That Son mountains. There seems to be Vietnamese schools of various southern Chinese styles all which use Thieu Lam in their name (just from looking at the signs at the beginning of the video we can se that, there is a Hong Quyen and Ving xuan quyen. )
    Here's one example http://www.vietanhmon.org/inglese_file/thieulam.htm

    It must be that one school's lineage. Most of the Thieu Lam styles on the internet (I know that's not a complete assessment, but it gives you a perspective of its broad flavor) is more like the typical Longfist stuff.

  10. #7285
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    Quote Originally Posted by tattooedmonk View Post
    This is one of the problems as I see it within the System. I was taught over 15 years ago that they were some of the oldest forms in our collection. The history of these forms should be documented and taught at the time of the instruction of the forms so there is no misunderstanding, misinformation perpetuated and the watering down of material.
    I learned these forms back in '84, man 23 yrs ago! whoa. Anyway there was an ad in IKF magazine that sin the' put out about some week long seminars he was holding for anyone to come and learn. When he listed the shaolin bird forms he followed them with original in parenthesis. I ask my instructor about it and he said they were created by GMS to add some material to the brown belt level. This was also in '84. It's just what I was told, why he would create new forms when he had 900 to choose from, I don't know.

  11. #7286
    Quote Originally Posted by bodhi warrior View Post
    I learned these forms back in '84, man 23 yrs ago! whoa. Anyway there was an ad in IKF magazine that sin the' put out about some week long seminars he was holding for anyone to come and learn. When he listed the shaolin bird forms he followed them with original in parenthesis. I ask my instructor about it and he said they were created by GMS to add some material to the brown belt level. This was also in '84. It's just what I was told, why he would create new forms when he had 900 to choose from, I don't know.
    I am just saying what I was told as well. What do you mean followed them with the original in parenthesis??

    From what I understand some of the 900+ are created by Master Sin.( This does not matter .Masters have been making forms since ......well since forms were created.)

    Who knows .

    My point was that with so many schools and so many teachers there are too many stories and too many of them are not accurate or blown out of proportion , and/or NOBODY knows.

    I think that a more accurate account of the history / lineage , forms / material , and rules/guidelines need to be documented and taught .

    Are you still in SD??

  12. #7287
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    I am not going to take the time to check, BUT, I am fairly certain that M. Hiang lists those on his site. Given that they are sperated from each other's schools, it really doesn't make sense that M. Hiang would require his students to learn those Bird forms if his brother made them up.
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  13. #7288
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    birds

    Quote Originally Posted by BM2 View Post
    I am not going to take the time to check, BUT, I am fairly certain that M. Hiang lists those on his site. Given that they are sperated from each other's schools, it really doesn't make sense that M. Hiang would require his students to learn those Bird forms if his brother made them up.
    The birds from 2nd to 1st brown, right? Lo tien, chan ie and yin he.
    http://www.centralshaolin.com/cshaol...rial_list.html

  14. #7289
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    Quote Originally Posted by tattooedmonk View Post
    I am just saying what I was told as well. What do you mean followed them with the original in parenthesis??

    From what I understand some of the 900+ are created by Master Sin.( This does not matter .Masters have been making forms since ......well since forms were created.)

    Who knows .

    My point was that with so many schools and so many teachers there are too many stories and too many of them are not accurate or blown out of proportion , and/or NOBODY knows.

    I think that a more accurate account of the history / lineage , forms / material , and rules/guidelines need to be documented and taught .

    Are you still in SD??
    Yea, i'm still in it. I love it too much. About the bird forms though, here is how it was listed in the ad: The Honan weeks:3 white crane kata: pai ho lian tse, pai ho chan tse, and pai ho chuan; 3 (original) shaolin bird kata: luo tien, chan ie, yen ho; 2 beautiful bow kata, se pa kuen and hai lung chang; plus the legendary double hook sword kata and double broad sword.
    I left out the some of the translations and the dates. There was also the Wu Tang weeks, and Shang tung weeks. Of all the material that was listed the bird forms are the only with the term original. Thats why I ask my instructor about it.
    I personally like the forms, it doesn't bother me if he did make them up.

  15. #7290
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    I'll talk to my instructor too. I believe that I was told that they were among the oldest forms we have so there is apparently some mis-communication and/or inconsistencly in the history.

    Frankly I'm shocked and appalled that there would be these issues with our history! Maybe I should quit!
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

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