Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[brucereiter]

Sorry, I was just going off the certificate information that was posted. On that apparently it said he was 20 and had been learning for 10 years.

i dont think the cert refers to the # 900 ...

Also, the common story is he knows 900 forms:

this is what he claims i have heard him say on video "i am master of 900 form"
i think that a good number of the 900 forms we given to him in 1992 from a peer of ie chang ming in indonisia, i could be mistaken.

And again, maybe I'm wrong but I thought one of the main bones of contention was his claims to be the only Grandmaster of Shaolin. E.g.:
Implying that SD contains more than any other individual Grandmaster commonly knew.

i am sure sin kwang the claims no authority over any shaolin monk or any temple.

i do not know if i have heard him say he is the only grandmaster of shaolin. i have heard many sd students express that opinion.

i think there are many people who can truly claim the title. i have heard of a few current traditional shaolin monks who practice 400 or more forms i posted a thread about one of them last year after reading about it in kung fu magazine.

sd does have a larger set of material than any system i know of. so i dont know if that claim is off or not.

i really can comment much on the legends about su kong tai jin, even sin kwang the would have to take another mans word about that.

the history/facts of exactly how all the material was introduced to ie chang ming is unknown to me.

So am I misunderstanding something?

i hope these comments shed a little light and cause you to ask more questions.
it is a very unclear history so i try to only talk about things i think are true.

best,

bruce

[brucereiter]

well it's good that at least some people in shaolin do are trying to make a difference. it seem quality in shaolin do is varied. one in my old city was very bad.

i'm christian too. because i am a christian i won't learn shaolin, out of respect for shaolin. shaolin is nothing without buddhism. then it would be a collection of 900 year old chinese military drills.
since mister sin the is christian, it would be rude of him to teach a buddhist martial art. he shouldn've claimed direct lineage from Taiping Heavenly Kingdom.
the taiping rebellion was awesome. jesus inspired kung fu

i think most chinese martial arts were inspired buy taoism or buddhism. i think there are very few "shaolin" schools that are religious organizations.

in a nut shell.

the four noble truths:
1 there is birth pain suffering old age and death
2 desire is the cause of suffering
3 extinction of desire ceases pain and suffering
4 the eight fold path is the route to the extinction of desire and freedom from suffering

the eight fold path:
right view
right thought
right speech
right action
right livelihood
right effort
right mindfulness
right meditation

[brucereiter]

thanks man, but it makes me still confused, the anti chinese policies in Indonesia are over , so why don't they now lose the gis and change the name to just shaolin?

i do not think there are any laws about that anymore but i do know first hand the some people from indonisia do not like the chinese being in their country.

when i was in jakarta in 2004 i spoke to many people about this subject 2 common things i heard are "chinese should go back to china" and "chinese people stink"

this is recently so i can imagine it could have been pretty bad at some point.

[tattooedmonk]

well it's good that at least some people in shaolin do are trying to make a difference. it seem quality in shaolin do is varied. one in my old city was very bad.

i'm christian too. because i am a christian i won't learn shaolin, out of respect for shaolin. shaolin is nothing without buddhism. then it would be a collection of 900 year old chinese military drills.
since mister sin the is christian, it would be rude of him to teach a buddhist martial art. he shouldn've claimed direct lineage from Taiping Heavenly Kingdom.
the taiping rebellion was awesome. jesus inspired kung fu

why would your Christian beliefs interfer with your practices of Shaolin??

This is closed minded thinking.

However ,if SD and CSC taught more of the Buddhist , Taoist ,and Confucian philosophy they would not have a great deal of the inner turmoil that they do.

The arts were based on the philosophies and divorcing the arts from them because of the previous religious connections is absurd.You can not teach the arts properly without them.

If they were all Buddhist in Shaolin they never would have been teaching military arts , they would have just been teaching basic self defense, they taught the killing arts . Buddhist would not be able to learn let alone commit such an act, now would they?.

Not all the warriors were monks or priest . Many of them were retired military men and some criminals of the state , etc.Many of them pretended to be so they could maintain their freedom and hide from the powers that be.

As for the name and the uniform. What is the difference? The name indicates what the style represents " The Way of Shaolin". Bruce Lees' Jeet Kune Do "The Way of the Intercepting Fist . No one has changed it to just Jeet kune Or Jeet Kune Tao either.The Gi is part of the traditions established in the original school in Indonesia. Some of the schools have changed them but not all ( not to mention this would P I S S off a few people) How hard can you train in a pair of silk pajamas anyway??:0)

and whether it is pronounced Tao or Do it is still the same character.

[Judge Pen]

myself haven't seen any south fist places claiming to be directly from shaolin, only shaolin do and a wing chun place.

i'm talking about Henan shaolin. Even if their stuff changes, they are still Shaolin. Even if they don't teach kung fu they are still Shaolin.

if you claim real shaolin, where is your qigong. where is the iron training. where is the chan buddhism.

even if shaolin do is fake that's okay with me, everybody needs to make a living. i just think to claim diresclty from shaolin you at least need some SKILLS.

There you go, you've limited your definition. So you discredit wing chun's claim of shaolin lineage? How about bak si lum, hung gar or CLF? As far as Henan, you're right--anything they teach has the official "shaolin" seal of approval, but its changed over time, has it not? Many schools that claim lineage to shaolin only claim that heritage for the material that was taught at a particular time when their lineage's diverged from shaolin. That's what SD is doing as well. Whatever claim they have to the temples (keep in mind, they claim that many martial temples were under the banner of shaolin--a concept not unknown to the martial community outside of SD--and SDs material is a snapshot of what was taught when SD's fukien temple allegedly burned).

And we train chi kung and iron training.... we don't teach any chan---we stick to marital principals, but I see that's already been noted.

[Judge Pen]

well it's good that at least some people in shaolin do are trying to make a difference. it seem quality in shaolin do is varied. one in my old city was very bad.

i'm christian too. because i am a christian i won't learn shaolin, out of respect for shaolin. shaolin is nothing without buddhism. then it would be a collection of 900 year old chinese military drills.
since mister sin the is christian, it would be rude of him to teach a buddhist martial art. he shouldn've claimed direct lineage from Taiping Heavenly Kingdom.
the taiping rebellion was awesome. jesus inspired kung fu

Were'nt the monks buddhist before they learned their martial principals? If its just a collection of military excercises that are effective in training health and self-defense then isn't that enough?

I'm a christian too, but I don't see it wrong to be respectful of certain concepts and learn arts that were based, in part, on religious or philosophical concepts that I don't necessarily share.

Jesus inspired kung fu? All kung fu or just your kung fu?

[Baqualin]

myself haven't seen any south fist places claiming to be directly from shaolin, only shaolin do and a wing chun place.

i'm talking about Henan shaolin. Even if their stuff changes, they are still Shaolin. Even if they don't teach kung fu they are still Shaolin.

if you claim real shaolin, where is your qigong. where is the iron training. where is the chan buddhism.

even if shaolin do is fake that's okay with me, everybody needs to make a living. i just think to claim diresclty from shaolin you at least need some SKILLS.

No chan...but fantastic iron training.....qiqong, Bruce left out 8 pathways and the 5 animal frolic's and more depending on the teacher
BQ

[brucereiter]

No chan...but fantastic iron training.....qiqong, Bruce left out 8 pathways and the 5 animal frolic's and more depending on the teacher
BQ

hi bagualin,

yeah 5 animals is a good practice too ... tell me about 8 path ways? i dont think i know that one by that name anyways ...



best,

bruce

[MasterKiller]

I just wanted to say Happy Birthday to my favorite SD'er, themeecer! I know you still peak at this thread!

[bawang]

hi im here for the gangbang

this is recently so i can imagine it could have been pretty bad at some point.

i think in 96 there was a massacre.

why would your Christian beliefs interfer with your practices of Shaolin??

.....

The arts were based on the philosophies and divorcing the arts from them because of the previous religious connections is absurd.You can not teach the arts properly without them. .

you contradicted yourself.

If they were all Buddhist in Shaolin they never would have been teaching military arts , they would have just been teaching basic self defense, they taught the killing arts . Buddhist would not be able to learn let alone commit such an act, now would they?..

shaolin is not an orthodox buddhist sect.

As for the name and the uniform. What is the difference?

i dunno, the japanese and chinese people are pretty friendly these days right?

[bawang]

There you go, you've limited your definition. So you discredit wing chun's claim of shaolin lineage? .

YES.

How about bak si lum, hung gar or CLF?.

no.

As far as Henan, you're right--anything they teach has the official "shaolin" seal of approval, but its changed over time, has it not? Many schools that claim lineage to shaolin only claim that heritage for the material that was taught at a particular time when their lineage's diverged from shaolin. That's what SD is doing as well. Whatever claim they have to the temples (keep in mind, they claim that many martial temples were under the banner of shaolin--a concept not unknown to the martial community outside of SD--and SDs material is a snapshot of what was taught when SD's fukien temple allegedly burned.

henan shaolin is the oldest shaolin temple and only one remaining in china. therfore they have authoristy.

And we train chi kung and iron training.... we don't teach any chan---we stick to marital principals, but I see that's already been noted.

then you are doing kung fu but not shaolin kung fu.
my problem is i haven't seen anybody from shaolin do any different from any other kung fu place. if you calim shaolin then you have to be unusually good and stand out. but you don't

Jesus inspired kung fu? All kung fu or just your kung fu?

it called the taiping rebellion and lasted ten years

[Golden Tiger]

yeah 5 animals is a good practice too ... tell me about 8 path ways? i dont think i know that one by that name anyways ...

8 pathways of immortality is what I think he is refering to. Follows up on Shien Tien Chi. Meditation pathways through the different points that make you feel all good and stuff.

[bawang]

Were'nt the monks buddhist before they learned their martial principals? If its just a collection of military excercises that are effective in training health and self-defense then isn't that enough?.

erm it's something to do with reaching spiritual enlightenment through martial arts. you have to have chan to be shaolin.even if the monks do BJJ they can still be shaolin if they practice chan. its the combine of spiritual and martal.
EDIT of course i'm talking about long ago, in galaxy far away.

:I'm a christian too, but I don't see it wrong to be respectful of certain concepts and learn arts that were based, in part, on religious or philosophical concepts that I don't necessarily share.

then you are influenced or inspired by shaolin but not directly from shaolin. hehehehe got you

[MasterKiller]

First of all, Shaolin warrior monks are not necessarily buddhist. They take different vows.

Second of all, styles that left the Temple and were practiced in hiding are a sh1tload more authentic than what's going on in Henen right now.

Third of all, Shaolin always encouraged adaptation and change so it's reasonable to expect modern off-shoots to differ wildly from their original base.

[bawang]

First of all, Shaolin warrior monks are not necessarily buddhist. They take different vows.

Second of all, styles that left the Temple and were practiced in hiding are a sh1tload more authentic than what's going on in Henen right now.

Third of all, Shaolin always encouraged adaptation and change so it's reasonable to expect modern off-shoots to differ wildly from their original base.

yo masterkiller, i agree with you but i'm talking about the "old" days when both military and scholar monks had to participate in buddhism.
and i didn't say south fists don't come from shaolin, i said its possible they did. (you can see some technique and footwork) but shaolin-do? ...
lastly yeh henan temple makes a lot of money teaching modern wushu, but that doesn't mean they don't teach authentic shaolin.