View Poll Results: What to do about the 'Is Shaolin-Do for real?' thread

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  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Merge all S-D threads together so it clears 1000 posts!

    22 38.60%
  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Let all the S-D threads stand independently.

    13 22.81%
  • Keep IS-Dfr locked down. All IS-Dfr posters deserved to be punished.

    5 8.77%
  • Delete them all. Let Yama sort them out.

    17 29.82%
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Thread: Is Shaolin-Do for real?

  1. #61
    Falcor Guest
    Another thought struck me. I checked out all the Shaolin-Do sites and addresses of schools and such, and it seems that they are all located in areas of the country with a low Asian population density. Places where the general public would have been l;ess exposed to legitimate CMA and thus would not have a standard to compare with. Interesting, isn't it?

    By the way, are there any Shaolin-Do schools in places like NY, LA, or SF, or similar locations?

    ...don't think you are, know you are...

  2. #62
    Radhnoti Guest

    Falcor

    I really liked your first post Falcor. Great analogy. I suppose that if someone watched some movie and they KNEW somehow that what they were watching was a specific style of Kung Fu...and that's what they wanted to study, to get something different might be a let down. For me, I just wanted a well-rounded, effective martial art with a serious and traditional TONE. Meaning emphasis on courtesy, forms, discipline and application. Had Shaolin-Do been presented to me as a brand new fighting discipline I doubt I'd have cared after meeting my instructor and sitting in on a few of the classes. There is a basic flaw to your analogy however. There's documentation and recordings of the blues and jazz greats, when it comes to the Shaolin temples there's only supposition and word of mouth. You have no proof that what I am studying is not Shaolin in it's purest modern form. Nor do I have proof that it is. I think it's a great system (from what I've seen, I've only studied about 8 months now), and you'll note that MOST those who claimed to have studied it for any length of time say it's a fine style.
    Maybe we can get dragon797 to bring Master Hiang onto the boards and settle the whole issue?
    It seems to me that if he and his brother had a falling out, he WOULD be willing to discredit his brother with some sort of overwhelming evidence if any exists? :)
    Hey, Inquisitor...when you rip into me next, you think you could open another thread to do it in? This is getting a bit long. ;)

    -Radhnoti

  3. #63
    Brad Guest

    Proof

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>You have no proof that what I am studying is not Shaolin in it's purest modern form. [/quote]

    Shaolin-Do teaches Taiji 24. This form was created in 1956 outside of the Shaolin Temple. Also Sai and Nunchucku(sp?) are Japanese weapons. Yang style Taiji is a family style created away from the temple also. Same goes for the other Taiji family styles. Also I would think if these styles were learned legitamately there would be some record or knowledge of Sin The or someone from his lineage among the Chen or Yang family. To tell the truth, I don't think any respected teachers have spoken out against Sin The because they either don't know about him, or they don't care as long as he stays away from them.

  4. #64
    Inquisitor Guest

    Radhnoti

    Thank you for proving my point. I was unable to change your mind because of, you guessed it, certain psychological processes.
    What really gets to me is that you have the gall to mock me and say that *I* have not done my job of discrediting Sin The, when I have very simply and clearly done so. The fact of the matter is that I did my job, and it was your job to defend against those arguments. You failed. Sin The is a fraud for all the reasons that I and others have mentioned. I am not going to waste my time reiterating myself when it is painfully visible to me that you have no intention of even listening to a word of it. If you had, then you would have never said something as utterly ludicrous as "No, so far YOU have yet to prove Shaolin-Do is a fraudulent martial art." The problems with your own self-styled "successful" defense against all of my arguments are that: A) You chose your battles. You ignored several of my key arguments such as the fact that Sin The teaches forms/styles outside of that which he claims knowledge of. Also, you ignored the fact that not only does Sin The teach things outside of his supposed system, but that he teaches things that are not even a part of the traditional Chinese Martial Arts. I could go on about other arguments, but I'd rather not. And B) You used flawed, runaround logic in each and every one of your rebuttals against my statements. When I made a statement like "No one can substantiate Sin The's claimed lineage," you would counter with something like "Well...we can't prove that he's what he says he is, but you can't prove that he isn't!" Give me a break. This isn't the 3rd Grade anymore. Try actually using information to rebut my statements, rather than inane and argumentatively useless accusations (go ask any professor that teaches logic if that sort of rebuttal holds any sort of water). My argument was that HIS LINEAGE IS FAKE. I have already given my proof as to why I believe it to be so. Now it is your job to disprove me, or provide evidence to show that his lineage is in fact legitimate. Oh, I'm sorry, I was expecting too much of you. I was expecting you to respond intelligently.

    Okay, I'm sick and tired of arguing about this. The proof is rampant throughout this entire thread that Sin The is a fake. If you wish to ignore the truth, then do so at your own folly.

    Caveat Emptor

  5. #65
    Radhnoti Guest
    Sheesh Inquisitor, I didn't expect you to fall apart like that. Was it because I liked Falcor's arguement? Sue me, I like it when people use small words and analogies to bring about a revelation. ;)
    "And B) You used flawed, runaround logic in each and every one of your rebuttals against my statements. When I made a statement like "No one can substantiate Sin The's claimed lineage," you would counter with something like "Well...we can't prove that he's what he says he is, but you can't prove that he isn't!" Give me a break. This isn't the 3rd Grade anymore. Try actually using information to rebut my statements, rather than inane and argumentatively useless accusations."
    So, it's ok for you to say you can't prove anything, but I need to produce some sort of documentation? I don't think (though I may be wrong...this has been a long discussion) I ever said nothing new had been incorporated into Shaolin-Do. Obvious things would be the Japanese gi and belt system. You obviously know more about the history of Taiji...or maybe that was Brad, anyway, perhaps other peripheral things have been added. Isn't that what the Shaolin Temples did for centuries? Catalog and Incorporate styles and forms?
    "What really gets to me is that you have the gall to mock me and say that *I* have not done my job of discrediting Sin The, when I have very simply and clearly done so. The fact of the matter is that I did my job, and it was your job to defend against those arguments. You failed."
    :rolleyes: Yes, I'll try and live with the shame. All I can do is go on and try to live day to day. First, I don't think it's my "job" to defend Grandmaster Sin...and it's sort of pathetic if you think your "job" is to discredit him. Your posts were long, I broke down each point as I could and tried to respond with my admittedly amateurish responses. All in all, I feel I've given the best account of myself that someone who's been in a style for just 8 months might be expected to give. If you saying I'm a failure makes you feel better, good, this is an online forum with pseudonyms and you shouldn't feel bad, no matter what some joker writes about you or to you.
    "I was unable to change your mind because of, you guessed it, certain psychological processes."
    Fair enough, we can assume I'm a close minded psychotic, brain washed Sin The' chanting flunky. While YOU from your impartial view on high offered me truth and knowledge which, due to my indoctrination, I ignored. The fact is that I have listened to you, and I'll measure what I learn with your grain of salt. Have you heard anything I've said? Anything positive I've said you seem to brush away. Is your hatred so strong that you refuse to acknowledge even the POSSIBILITY that someone could study Shaolin-Do and be happy?
    "Oh, I'm sorry, I was expecting too much of you. I was expecting you to respond intelligently."
    Ok. Again, if a personal attack makes you feel better...it won't keep me up nights. ;)
    "Okay, I'm sick and tired of arguing about this."
    Wow! We agree on something. :D

    -Radhnoti

  6. #66
    Anarcho Guest

    Hi hi hi, Mr. Deltoid.

    Let me start by saying that I have no emotional commitment to Shaolin-Do being fake or genuine. I have looked at the website with the dog guy on it, and heard about the 984.713 forms involved, the weird Japanese stylings etc. all of which leads me to believe that it's probably bollocks...But who knows? Maybe I'm wrong, it doesn't worry me.

    The question I have, though, is about how Shaolin-Do is seen by the rest of the CMA community. Several styles have more or less bitter political situations (Wing Chun, Northern Mantis, etc.), but noone seems to really doubt the skill of their rivals, just claims about being the sole inheritor of the system and that kind of thing. So, if Shaolin-Do is genuine, why do you think that it occupies this special position? Only the people who practice it seem to support its effectiveness, a situation which I've never encountered before except with really, really dodgy frauds. Anyway, I'd be interested in responses from any Shaolin-Do students.

  7. #67
    BeiKongHui Guest
    How many of you Shaolin Do guys teachers will let you train at other places while doing Shaolin Do?

    "Gong Sao Mo Gong Ching Sao"
    - When you talk with the hands,
    best not to speak of polite hands.

  8. #68
    dragon797 Guest
    Radhnoti: I am not a student of either man. I recently restored a friendship from my old days in school in Lexington that gives me an accurate account of events concerning Hiang The. I am here only to correct misinformation about Hiang, not get embroiled in this impossibly ridiculous debate that rears its ugly head on the internet from time to time.

    Actually, Hiang does not speak poorly of his brother. He just wants to build his own group and establish its own identity based solely on the material he was taught. Most of the history and claims that generate the negative comments about Shaolin-do took their altered shape after the two brothers split around 1982. Before then, any silence on Hiang's part can be attributed to something called respect for the family's oldest brother, a very strong principle in Chinese culture.

    Also, it's good to hear that some of those who have been around since the early days still have a positive opinion of Hiang. There are many good people from back then. It's sad that events turned out the way they did and that people had to choose between one brother or the other.
    b

  9. #69
    dragon797 Guest
    To BeiKongHui:
    Concerning training in other styles: Hiang always told his students that if they could find a better martial arts practice, to let him know because he would send his kids there. I believe his children are still with him at the YMCA. (Sorry, I couldn't resist) If a student can keep up with 10 separate long forms per each rank (Black Belt levels), spar and attend classes regularly, then Hiang said they could always study whatever else they wanted. I say why go somewhere else when you haven't even learned everything one system has to offer? That's a personal choice.

    From my own experience, I find that sparring with people from other groups usually turns into trouble. If you are getting the best of them, they resort with cheap shots and with more than the agreed on contact. Defending yourself on the street is one thing, ANYTHING goes, but I'm past walking around with loose teeth and black eyes from "friendly" sparring with strangers. If you're in Lexington, try a pick-up basketball game at UK or Douglas Park some Sunday. Once you start throwing it down on a guy, half the time he'll start to foul you, then there will be an argument, and then a fight. I'll just rent a gym and play with my buds.

  10. #70
    Radhnoti Guest
    Anarcho, as far as I can tell (I've been wrong before though) MOST don't question Shaolin-Do's effectiveness, just the lineage. It might also be said that SINCE the lineage is so questioned some question the effectiveness. Several posters who weren't/aren't Grandmaster Sin's students have commented that they feel Shaolin-Do is an effective martial art in this thread.
    BeiKongHui, my instructor believes much as dragon797 has said Master Hiang does. He and I have attended seminars given by local instructors from other styles. My teacher's teacher is another story entirely. I was once told of a fellow he had taught into the lower black belts who went to another SHAOLIN-DO instructor. He refuses to speak of him or acknowledge that he exists. "He is dead to me.", is a phrase reported to have come from his mouth. So, I suppose that it depends upon the teacher.
    dragon797, I also feel it is a sad situation. The respectful tone used when anyone speaks of Master Hiang seems to indicate that he is a fine person as well as an excellent martial artist and teacher.

    -Radhnoti

  11. #71
    Talon Guest

    Misc.

    Why didn't Master Hiang ever say anything before? Nobody knows for sure I don't think. The fact is, he came over to this country separately
    from his brother and taught on his own for quite a while. They teamed up for reasons I'm not sure on, but on the surface it would look to be a
    perfect situation. Two high ranking brothers teaching an art together. Maybe they thought they had a better chance of success working
    together. However, Master Hiang never submitted himself to Sin's version of the story and it can be assumed he didn't like what Sin was doing so that is why they split. Sin's storytelling has grown leaps and bounds over the years, and the more it has grown, the more Master Hiang has distanced himself from his brother. Master Hiang has never made extraordinary claims about himself or the art he teaches. He is very upfront about what he knows and what he doesn't and who he learned what from. As to someone else's comment earlier, the only students that would ever want Sin and Hiang to get back together are maybe Sin's students. I'm not even sure on that.
    Hiang's students only view Sin with the same questions as does the rest of the martial arts community. Maybe even worse. Sin is an
    embarrasment to their art and they will probably never be able to completely distance themselves from him. As to what Master Hiang thinks, from what I'm told he rarely says a lot on the subject. This is due to lots of reasons I'm sure. He wants to concentrate on his own
    stuff, he is embarrassed by the whole thing, and maybe a lingering sense of respect to his older brother.
    To Bei Kong Hiu (I know that's misspelled, sorry), I'm sure your teachers are reputable and are well known masters in their own right. Just out of curiousity, and I do mean that sincerely, other than the wing chun, the other style of kung fu taught at your school is simply titled "Chinese Martial Arts". What type of kung fu is that and what are it's origins?

  12. #72
    BeiKongHui Guest

    Talon-

    I have always heard that Hiang is on the level but I've never personally met him. I do know his students speak highly of him and if what you say is true it is a tragedy he has been victimized as such by his brother.
    Ah, you must have a phone book ;)
    The owner of the school has trained in several different styles of Kung Fu and several other martial arts and is an NHB competitor. I do not train under him so I really can't give your more specifics. Go in & talk to him he's a cool guy! I do know that they call the class chinese combatives and it seems to work pretty well because he's taken many multiple black belts, etc who couldn't fight and taught them how. I think a former student of Hiang's trains in it (who speaks well of him, btw) perhaps you know him and can get a better answer.

    Also, can you tell us Hiang's side of the story? I'm sure people would love to hear the truth about Shaolin-Do.

    "Gong Sao Mo Gong Ching Sao"
    - When you talk with the hands,
    best not to speak of polite hands.

    [This message was edited by BeiKongHui on 04-20-01 at 04:13 PM.]

  13. #73
    Talon Guest
    Well, I know a lot about what has gone on in the past, not from personal experience, but the info comes from the people that were there. However I don't think it is necessary to spill out the entire past for everyone to see, not because it's a secret but mainly because Master Hiang doesn't want that, again it goes back to the fact him and Sin are brothers and I'm sure he doesn't want to badmouth him. His actions speak for themselves. As dragon797 said, Hiang is now teaching his own art and is trying very hard to make his own identity. Again, the actions speak for themselves.
    One little factoid that is well known among Hiang's students, and maybe some shaolin-do students is that Sin tried to sue a student of Hiang's years back for copyright infringement, trying to keep him from teaching the material out (because he says he is the grandmaster). When the day in court came and Sin produced notes for the material that he had back from his days in Indonesia, Hiang matched him note for note. And then there were notes for material Hiang had, that Sin didn't, including at least one very basic piece of material (the short stick form taught at green belt). Does this mean Hiang has 950 katas (the # Sin claims)? No, Hiang has somewhere around 100-150, I'm not sure exactly. So where does Sin keep picking up new material trying to reach that self proclaimed # of 950? I'll leave everyone to their own theories.
    There is a very good reason a lot of Sin's senior students respect Hiang. He taught them a lot of stuff Sin can't, because he never learned it himself.
    I'm not trying to stir up any bad blood, but, the facts are the facts. I don't see anything wrong with people knowing the facts. And living in Lexington, I'm sure you are very aware of the type of marketing that goes on with Sin's school. They pay off the Shaolin temple to put a tablet up, then they pay the Horse Park to let them demonstrate during the China exhibit last summer, then they pay Joseph Beth to do demonstrations at the book store. All the while acting like these were all honors and invitations thrust upon them.
    I guess I should stop for now, I'm starting to go off .
    :D

  14. #74
    BeiKongHui Guest
    That's cool. The Sin The' thing can be really frustrating. Do you currently train? They also have a Wushu teacher & a Jeet Kune Do teacher if your interested in CMA's.

    "Gong Sao Mo Gong Ching Sao"
    - When you talk with the hands,
    best not to speak of polite hands.

    [This message was edited by BeiKongHui on 04-20-01 at 04:56 PM.]

  15. #75
    Talon Guest
    Unfortunately right now I don't. I do a lot of travelling with my current job so that prevents me from keeping up regular attendance at a school. I do however practice on my own and continue to work out.

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