View Poll Results: What to do about the 'Is Shaolin-Do for real?' thread

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  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Merge all S-D threads together so it clears 1000 posts!

    22 38.60%
  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Let all the S-D threads stand independently.

    13 22.81%
  • Keep IS-Dfr locked down. All IS-Dfr posters deserved to be punished.

    5 8.77%
  • Delete them all. Let Yama sort them out.

    17 29.82%
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Thread: Is Shaolin-Do for real?

  1. #7516
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    Quote Originally Posted by MasterKiller View Post
    "One man emerged from the flames to carry on the tradition of the Shaolin Temple. This man was known as the Grandmaster.

    In accordance with tradition, only one person can carry this title. Since that time, only three have. Each, in his time, the ultimate practitioner of the art."

    "Grandmaster E died in 1976, but not before passing all his knowledge on to me, the current Grandmaster of Shaolin."

    "Mastering more than 900 forms from over 100 fighting systems, I became the youngest Grandmaster in 1500 years of Shaolin history."

    "After Grandmaster E's death, I realized that while there were many engineers in the world, there was only one Grandmaster of Shaolin..."

    You don't see a conflict there, Bruce?

    BTW, Su Kong was at the oldest 26 when he fled to the mountains according to that website. How old was he when he became "The Grandmaster"?
    So there have only been 3 Grandmasters of Shaolin, starting with Su Kong?

    And this statement isn't misleading either?
    "In 1992, at a large celebration at the Honan Province (the original Shaolin temple), Chief Abbot Su Xi presented a stone tablet to commemorate my visit."

    Sounds to me like the Abbot presented the tablet to Sin The, not the Soards or students as has been stated in this thread. I think the average person would read it that way.

    JP
    I'm not doubting kwaichang met with Sin The, I doubt he asked the tough questions like he told us he would. He probably asked a few simple questions and took the answers at face value.

    He refused to report back to us like he said he would because he chickened out of asking the questions the non-SD public wants answered.

    His credibility has been reduced to ZERO and has proven himself to be nothing more than a shill for SD. Even some of the SD folks would like to hear these answers.

    The big question is why the secrecy?
    When seconds count the cops are only minutes away!

    Quote Originally Posted by wenshu View Post
    Sorry, sometimes I forget you guys have that special secret internal sauce where people throw themselves and you don't have to do anything except collect tuition.

  2. #7517
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    Put the pipe down

    Quote Originally Posted by Judge Pen View Post
    That's a constructive post. Thanks for contributing to the dialogue. Ad hominem arguments on what your 3rd post--way to get to the heart of the matter quickly. What's your axe to grind? Had a bad experience with SD or after eight years of Hung Gar do you want to join the martial arts police?
    ....and step away from the crystal meth.

    The above wasn't an attempt at an argument...its called sarcasm. (Another example to reinforce today's lesson)

    An argument contains one or more premises and a conclusion, but judging from the past level of point/counterpoint on this thread, well-constructed/logical arguments would be wasted on the SD crowd.

    Please continue your fawning over Sin The.

  3. #7518
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    From what I understand any one can get a huge stone tablet made in thier honor and placed in front of the temple. all that has to be done is donate so much money to the temple. The temple has become more of a tourist attraction now days. I can get a monument in my honor if I donate a lot of money.

  4. #7519
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yao Sing View Post
    I think what you're wanting is more of a denouncement of the claims and not just a non-propagation of them.

    IOW, not speaking out against them is in fact supporting the claims. You would think that an honest person would want to set that all straight, especially if you control the organization.


    Yep... in a word yep
    Message: Due to the ongoing Recession, God has decided the light at the end of the tunnel will be shut off due to power costs. That is all.

  5. #7520
    Quote Originally Posted by MasterKiller View Post
    "One man emerged from the flames to carry on the tradition of the Shaolin Temple. This man was known as the Grandmaster.

    In accordance with tradition, only one person can carry this title. Since that time, only three have. Each, in his time, the ultimate practitioner of the art."

    "Grandmaster E died in 1976, but not before passing all his knowledge on to me, the current Grandmaster of Shaolin."

    "Mastering more than 900 forms from over 100 fighting systems, I became the youngest Grandmaster in 1500 years of Shaolin history."

    "After Grandmaster E's death, I realized that while there were many engineers in the world, there was only one Grandmaster of Shaolin..."

    You don't see a conflict there, Bruce?

    BTW, Su Kong was at the oldest 26 when he fled to the mountains according to that website. How old was he when he became "The Grandmaster"?
    i guess it depends on how you define what is meant with the use of the word "shaolin".
    regarding su kong tai jin the stories/legends around him are not as far as i know verifiable so i take the legends with a grain of salt.

    i agree it could be spelled out in a much more direct manner. but that is not up to me.
    best,

    bruce

    Happy indeed we live,
    friendly amidst the hostile.
    Amidst hostile men
    we dwell free from hatred.

    http://youtube.com/profile?user=brucereiter

  6. #7521
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiballsoffire View Post
    ....and step away from the crystal meth.

    The above wasn't an attempt at an argument...its called sarcasm. (Another example to reinforce today's lesson)

    An argument contains one or more premises and a conclusion, but judging from the past level of point/counterpoint on this thread, well-constructed/logical arguments would be wasted on the SD crowd.

    Please continue your fawning over Sin The.

    So what part of your "sarcastic" post below

    Quote Originally Posted by chiballsoffire View Post
    Ladies and Gentlemen....please give a big hand to Golden Shower....SD's chief Kool-Aid taste-tester. Goldie's taken some time off from his high-level duties to provide all you pee-ons (no pun intended) with his latest words of wisdom.

    So, how's that private instruction going? What's the system called?....Rusty Trombone?
    was constructive and contributive to this discussion? Out of you 4 posts you come in and attack someone personally "Golden Shower" etc. and then take the position that you're the bastion of logic when I call you out?

    I'd give you a 0.25.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  7. #7522
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    Quote Originally Posted by mkriii View Post
    From what I understand any one can get a huge stone tablet made in thier honor and placed in front of the temple. all that has to be done is donate so much money to the temple. The temple has become more of a tourist attraction now days. I can get a monument in my honor if I donate a lot of money.
    Master Chan Pui of Wah Lum has one at Shaolin. I never asked but I'm sure he donated money to the Temple. I've never heard anyone claim it was erected purely to honor him or the school.

    He is, however, recognized as 33rd Generation Disciple of Shaolin and is listed on the tablet that has the generations of names. He doesn't claim to be the GM of Shaolin or anything like that though.

    And, as I understand, they also tested his skills behind closed doors. I guess this was before giving him the discipleship.

    Maybe Sin The should go to Shaolin, kick them all out and claim his heritage?
    When seconds count the cops are only minutes away!

    Quote Originally Posted by wenshu View Post
    Sorry, sometimes I forget you guys have that special secret internal sauce where people throw themselves and you don't have to do anything except collect tuition.

  8. #7523
    Quote Originally Posted by bodhi warrior View Post
    I personally think that most if not all the material taught up until 1990,gms probably learned in Indonesia. All this new stuff is probably coming from other sources. If you look at the master certificates they don't list the new stuff.
    see my previous posts about the 1992 trip to indonesia and the the notes recieved by gmt at that time from a peer of ie chang ming. ... ... ...
    best,

    bruce

    Happy indeed we live,
    friendly amidst the hostile.
    Amidst hostile men
    we dwell free from hatred.

    http://youtube.com/profile?user=brucereiter

  9. #7524
    Quote Originally Posted by Yao Sing View Post
    So there have only been 3 Grandmasters of Shaolin, starting with Su Kong?
    i think what is meant by that is in "our" line of shaolin. it seems clear to me. i can see how a person with now understanding of martial arts history could think what you are implying though :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by Yao Sing View Post
    And this statement isn't misleading either?
    "In 1992, at a large celebration at the Honan Province (the original Shaolin temple), Chief Abbot Su Xi presented a stone tablet to commemorate my visit."
    this is true. how is it misleading? what is misleading are stories that some people have added to the whole tablet thing ...

    on the tablet is says who it is from and for ... it is too bad that many people think that su xi gave it to gmt so su xi could honor him lol

    Quote Originally Posted by Yao Sing View Post
    Sounds to me like the Abbot presented the tablet to Sin The, not the Soards or students as has been stated in this thread. I think the average person would read it that way.
    mr halladay who co- wrote the "book" maybe should have left nothing to the imagination ...
    best,

    bruce

    Happy indeed we live,
    friendly amidst the hostile.
    Amidst hostile men
    we dwell free from hatred.

    http://youtube.com/profile?user=brucereiter

  10. #7525
    Quote Originally Posted by mkriii View Post
    From what I understand any one can get a huge stone tablet made in thier honor and placed in front of the temple. all that has to be done is donate so much money to the temple. The temple has become more of a tourist attraction now days. I can get a monument in my honor if I donate a lot of money.
    yes this is true now and was true then. what is the point?
    best,

    bruce

    Happy indeed we live,
    friendly amidst the hostile.
    Amidst hostile men
    we dwell free from hatred.

    http://youtube.com/profile?user=brucereiter

  11. #7526
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    Wah Lum and Master Chan has had similar questions. He kept returning to China and picking up more material from his kung fu uncles etc. plus he's gathered a library of manuscripts as well. New additions to the system come from these sources although they don't branch beyond the main source. It's all related, not multiple systems.

    Sounds to me like Sin The got a hold of Ie's (or his associates) manuscripts. Or maybe he just collects up everything he can get his hands on which would account for the diversity of material.
    When seconds count the cops are only minutes away!

    Quote Originally Posted by wenshu View Post
    Sorry, sometimes I forget you guys have that special secret internal sauce where people throw themselves and you don't have to do anything except collect tuition.

  12. #7527
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    [QUOTE=Yao Sing;799787]Wah Lum and Master Chan has had similar questions. He kept returning to China and picking up more material from his kung fu uncles etc. plus he's gathered a library of manuscripts as well. New additions to the system come from these sources although they don't branch beyond the main source. It's all related, not multiple systems.

    Sounds to me like Sin The got a hold of Ie's (or his associates) manuscripts.

    Exactly, they were presented to him in 92....he told me that a lot would have been lost if he had not received the manuscripts...he also picked up material from his visits back to Indonesia from as you say his kung fu uncles, little brother, etc.
    BQ

  13. #7528
    OK, who owns www.shaolingrandmaster.com then?

    Because the biography on that site would lead one to believe he is the grandmaster of all Shaolin.
    As to this question – GMT owns this domain name and wrote most of text. He paid to have this site done by a guy who does website design for a living and happens to be a student in Atlanta. GMT personally wrote the biography on the site within the last year – you can tell by syntax that he wrote it.

  14. #7529
    I see five key points of contention in this debate.

    1. Does Grandmaster The’ claim to be the Grandmaster of Shaolin or of Shaolin-Do?
    2. What’s the deal with markers at the Temples?
    3. What is the deal with these 900 forms?
    4. The lineage!!
    5. Where is some of this material coming from?


    1. The problem is even though GMT speaks about 8 or 9 languages he sometimes fails to communicate what he really means. I have heard him talk about someone for a while saying “he did this and he did that” and then GMT says the persons name and it’s a female name. So, it turns out that the “he” is really a “she” - Unfortunately, he seems to interchange – Shaolin with Shaolin-Do (Tao) - It would be great if he was 100% consistent on saying Grandmaster of Shaolin-Do but he isn’t. He certainly does not believe that he has dominion over the entire Shaolin world.

    2. The markers were paid for by students who went on the various China trips. The first marker was erected in 1992 at the Northern Temple. The Soards padded the price of the trip to the students so they could buy the marker. They never said that they didn’t have to pay for it. That marker as well as the one in the Southern Temple is clearly there to honor the Soards. GMT is only mentioned as an afterthought. The one at Chen Temple was built with donations collected on the buses while sitting there at Chen Village. The wording of that one clearly states it was built for GMT – by his students.

    3. The 900 forms!!! Again, it would be best if GMT didn’t ever say “mastered” 900 forms. By his own admission on many occasions he has said things like “I haven’t done this form in 40 years.” None of us have “mastered” any huge amount of forms. The better masters in SD have “mastered” something – maybe the Hua if you’re EM Mullins. I have no idea how many forms GMT could do right now but it not even close to 900, maybe more like 100.

    4. The lineage!! The demand for indisputable, absolutely verifiable proof is entirely unreasonable. Indisputable, absolutely verifiable proof does not exist for anyone’s lineage or most any historical account. I think it is safe to say that GMT learned some body of material from GGM Ie. He was promoted to 5th Black through mostly normal methods and then the maximum rank was magically moved to 10th Black a few years later. There obviously was no additional material to speak of. After GGM Ie – who knows? GMT only knows the story of Su Kong because that is what he says he was told by GGM Ie.

    5. Where is some of this stuff coming from? Some amount came from GGM Ie but obviously not all of it. The Tai Chi 24 Form and the 17th Generation Chen Form most likely came from elsewhere for example. However, some of the very unique things like Snake Pa Kua I believe came through our “stated lineage” That form just isn’t out there in books and videos. Of course, this ties back to the 900 form claim. Why did some things come from elsewhere if GGM Ie taught GMT 900 forms? A good question – one I would like to hear an answer to.

    In some ways I agree with Sean it would be nice if GMT The’ stopped talking about 900 forms, made it clear he was the Shaolin-Do Grandmaster – not the Shaolin Grandmaster, never used the markers at the Temples as “validation” and made clear what he learned as a youth from GGM Ie versus what was acquired elsewhere.

    However, I’m pretty sure that GMT will not be buying ad time on national TV to make statements to this effect in an effort to make Sean and some others happy. If he did – what would we all talk about then?

  15. #7530
    Quote Originally Posted by Chain Whip View Post
    I see five key points of contention in this debate.

    1. Does Grandmaster The’ claim to be the Grandmaster of Shaolin or of Shaolin-Do?
    2. What’s the deal with markers at the Temples?
    3. What is the deal with these 900 forms?
    4. The lineage!!
    5. Where is some of this material coming from?


    1. The problem is even though GMT speaks about 8 or 9 languages he sometimes fails to communicate what he really means. I have heard him talk about someone for a while saying “he did this and he did that” and then GMT says the persons name and it’s a female name. So, it turns out that the “he” is really a “she” - Unfortunately, he seems to interchange – Shaolin with Shaolin-Do (Tao) - It would be great if he was 100% consistent on saying Grandmaster of Shaolin-Do but he isn’t. He certainly does not believe that he has dominion over the entire Shaolin world.

    2. The markers were paid for by students who went on the various China trips. The first marker was erected in 1992 at the Northern Temple. The Soards padded the price of the trip to the students so they could buy the marker. They never said that they didn’t have to pay for it. That marker as well as the one in the Southern Temple is clearly there to honor the Soards. GMT is only mentioned as an afterthought. The one at Chen Temple was built with donations collected on the buses while sitting there at Chen Village. The wording of that one clearly states it was built for GMT – by his students.

    3. The 900 forms!!! Again, it would be best if GMT didn’t ever say “mastered” 900 forms. By his own admission on many occasions he has said things like “I haven’t done this form in 40 years.” None of us have “mastered” any huge amount of forms. The better masters in SD have “mastered” something – maybe the Hua if you’re EM Mullins. I have no idea how many forms GMT could do right now but it not even close to 900, maybe more like 100.

    4. The lineage!! The demand for indisputable, absolutely verifiable proof is entirely unreasonable. Indisputable, absolutely verifiable proof does not exist for anyone’s lineage or most any historical account. I think it is safe to say that GMT learned some body of material from GGM Ie. He was promoted to 5th Black through mostly normal methods and then the maximum rank was magically moved to 10th Black a few years later. There obviously was no additional material to speak of. After GGM Ie – who knows? GMT only knows the story of Su Kong because that is what he says he was told by GGM Ie.

    5. Where is some of this stuff coming from? Some amount came from GGM Ie but obviously not all of it. The Tai Chi 24 Form and the 17th Generation Chen Form most likely came from elsewhere for example. However, some of the very unique things like Snake Pa Kua I believe came through our “stated lineage” That form just isn’t out there in books and videos. Of course, this ties back to the 900 form claim. Why did some things come from elsewhere if GGM Ie taught GMT 900 forms? A good question – one I would like to hear an answer to.

    In some ways I agree with Sean it would be nice if GMT The’ stopped talking about 900 forms, made it clear he was the Shaolin-Do Grandmaster – not the Shaolin Grandmaster, never used the markers at the Temples as “validation” and made clear what he learned as a youth from GGM Ie versus what was acquired elsewhere.

    However, I’m pretty sure that GMT will not be buying ad time on national TV to make statements to this effect in an effort to make Sean and some others happy. If he did – what would we all talk about then?
    fantastic post! some great observations and questions.
    best,

    bruce

    Happy indeed we live,
    friendly amidst the hostile.
    Amidst hostile men
    we dwell free from hatred.

    http://youtube.com/profile?user=brucereiter

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