Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Yao Sing]

Excellent post. A revelation to me about the first marker honoring the Soards.

Question: if he regularly interchanges Shaolin and Shaolin Do then it would appear he views them as the same thing. How do we know he doesn't see himself as the GM of Shaolin?

As a side note I would think his senior students would be in a position to help him understand, and correct the impression the incorrect wording is giving the general public.

If your best friend make a fool of himself publicly because he doesn't understand the language would he correct him and explain?

Also, from what I understand GM and 10th dan mean the same thing so I would imagine a GM to automatically me awarded 10th dan no matter what his rank. I don't see that as an issue.

But the lineage thing, there should be some attempt to reconcile it at least with the Temple's version of history. From what I hear it doesn't fit with the accepted history of Shaolin.

[mkriii]

I think that everyone should just let Sin The' be. If you choose to believe he is the GM and believe his lineage story then believe it, if you don't believe then so be it. debating this issue will not solve a thing. GM Sin The' will continue to teach and oversee 100's of Shaolin Do schools. I personally don't believe all he claims to know or even believe he deserves his 10th degree black belt or title of Grandmaster. I think that is something that you have to earn and I don't believe he earned it. I think he promoted himself. Having said that, nothing has changed. So as i asked before, is anything going to change with this debate. I doubt it.

[Yao Sing]

Yeah but we're growing the monster of all threads discussing it and end the end isn't that what life is all about?

500 or bust!!!

Plus we have the Internet Challenge thread in the main forum gaining fast.

[kwaichang]

I read back in the thread , boy you guys have been busy, That mkriii trained with Rusty Gray if this is true then you should know and I do that you have lost all credibilty by stating that . I know him personally and if you are studying Wing Chun with him you too are ripped off. I have known him since 1983 so how can you say anything of any credibility with that claim. KC

[sean_stonehart]

I see five key points of contention in this debate.

Sounds about right & this is a bomb posting by the way. Excellent in thought & presentation of the topics.

1. Does Grandmaster The’ claim to be the Grandmaster of Shaolin or of Shaolin-Do?

1. The problem is even though GMT speaks about 8 or 9 languages he sometimes fails to communicate what he really means. I have heard him talk about someone for a while saying “he did this and he did that” and then GMT says the persons name and it’s a female name. So, it turns out that the “he” is really a “she” - Unfortunately, he seems to interchange – Shaolin with Shaolin-Do (Tao) - It would be great if he was 100% consistent on saying Grandmaster of Shaolin-Do but he isn’t. He certainly does not believe that he has dominion over the entire Shaolin world.

I can understand that but I know plenty of other people personally, professionally, by association, etc... that are multilingual and have no problem keeping little things (but important ones) such as gender, separate & correct.

As to the dominion thing, you're right he doesn't. However at times it is left intentionally vague & that's where the problems start with the newbies, sycophants & hangers on. I've been around him in the past enough to recognize it when it happens.

2. What’s the deal with markers at the Temples?

2. The markers were paid for by students who went on the various China trips. The first marker was erected in 1992 at the Northern Temple. The Soards padded the price of the trip to the students so they could buy the marker. They never said that they didn’t have to pay for it. That marker as well as the one in the Southern Temple is clearly there to honor the Soards. GMT is only mentioned as an afterthought. The one at Chen Temple was built with donations collected on the buses while sitting there at Chen Village. The wording of that one clearly states it was built for GMT – by his students.

The Henan & Fujian Shaolin steles both are exactly that... for them. Have you been to Henan? I wish I'd taken a picture of the back of the stele. It's like a version 1 that makes a barest of mention of Sin The. So the stone carver apparently just turned it around & mounted it with the facing that everybody has their pic taken with.

The Chen stele was exactly as you described, even with a little drama when the people that paid for it saw it. Had to be there & no I'm not going into it in public.

3. What is the deal with these 900 forms?

3. The 900 forms!!! Again, it would be best if GMT didn’t ever say “mastered” 900 forms. By his own admission on many occasions he has said things like “I haven’t done this form in 40 years.” None of us have “mastered” any huge amount of forms. The better masters in SD have “mastered” something – maybe the Hua if you’re EM Mullins. I have no idea how many forms GMT could do right now but it not even close to 900, maybe more like 100.

That's about right, but the bone here is the "claiming" of materials that never, ever came out of any temple at any time. Then the training regimen for the material is non-existent or not wholly correct because of the other blue billion worth of SD training. It's impossible to focus correct training methods because of how it's put together.

4. The lineage!!

4. The lineage!! The demand for indisputable, absolutely verifiable proof is entirely unreasonable. Indisputable, absolutely verifiable proof does not exist for anyone’s lineage or most any historical account. I think it is safe to say that GMT learned some body of material from GGM Ie. He was promoted to 5th Black through mostly normal methods and then the maximum rank was magically moved to 10th Black a few years later. There obviously was no additional material to speak of. After GGM Ie – who knows? GMT only knows the story of Su Kong because that is what he says he was told by GGM Ie.

Enough has gone on here.

5. Where is some of this material coming from?

5. Where is some of this stuff coming from? Some amount came from GGM Ie but obviously not all of it. The Tai Chi 24 Form and the 17th Generation Chen Form most likely came from elsewhere for example. However, some of the very unique things like Snake Pa Kua I believe came through our “stated lineage” That form just isn’t out there in books and videos. Of course, this ties back to the 900 form claim. Why did some things come from elsewhere if GGM Ie taught GMT 900 forms? A good question – one I would like to hear an answer to.

A point of interest. Just so happens after going to China in 01 & browsing around the area, we saw lots of Mulan fan practice in Beijing. Next big thing to hit SD... Mulan fan with some whacked out story of its history.

Dig this... Article on Mulan Quan by the FOUNDER OF MULAN QUAN

In some ways I agree with Sean it would be nice if GMT The’ stopped talking about 900 forms, made it clear he was the Shaolin-Do Grandmaster – not the Shaolin Grandmaster, never used the markers at the Temples as “validation” and made clear what he learned as a youth from GGM Ie versus what was acquired elsewhere.

That would be good.

However, I’m pretty sure that GMT will not be buying ad time on national TV to make statements to this effect in an effort to make Sean and some others happy. If he did – what would we all talk about then?

Don't think so?? Dang... actually just a simple statement on his web page & since he is the GM of the system, a quick note to all of the subordinate schools to do the same would clear things up.

Y'wanna know a funny thing... if he'd just called it "The` Family MA" or IndoChinese Kungfu/Kuntao, nobody would've ever said anything.

[sean_stonehart]

Go 500 go!!!!!!!

[Golden Tiger]

But anyways, about my training. I studied under Sin's brother at the Sin The' Sport Center and got up to brown belt. I don't know how he opperates now but back then when we would sparr in class he did not allow ANY contact at all. We were told to stop 2 inches away from the opponent.

If you were told to stop 2 inches away from your opponent, I have to question that you were studying under Master Hiang. Perhaps if you were told to stop after the second spurt of blood, I might believe you a bit more. He was a brutal teacher back then!

[Baqualin]

If you were told to stop 2 inches away from your opponent, I have to question that you were studying under Master Hiang. Perhaps if you were told to stop after the second spurt of blood, I might believe you a bit more. He was a brutal teacher back then!

I was thinking the same thing GT....I took a breathing and Meditation class from him.....he pushed a short stick into my solar plexus and almost touched my spine with it.....pointing out I wasn't breathing right.....needless to say I learned to breathe right
BQ

[bodhi warrior]

[QUOTE=Baqualin;799803]

Wah Lum and Master Chan has had similar questions. He kept returning to China and picking up more material from his kung fu uncles etc. plus he's gathered a library of manuscripts as well. New additions to the system come from these sources although they don't branch beyond the main source. It's all related, not multiple systems.

Sounds to me like Sin The got a hold of Ie's (or his associates) manuscripts.

Exactly, they were presented to him in 92....he told me that a lot would have been lost if he had not received the manuscripts...he also picked up material from his visits back to Indonesia from as you say his kung fu uncles, little brother, etc.
BQ

Then how can he say he is a master of these styles if the only way he knows them is through the manuscripts? If he did know them, then he must have forgotten them or they wouldn't have been close to being lost.

[Chain Whip]

Something to think about in regards to GMT’s statements about being Shaolin Grandmaster such as ”..while there were many engineers in the world there was only one Grandmaster of Shaolin.” Put this in perspective of the time he was making this decision (about finishing his degree or being a fulltime martial arts master) – the mid-1960’s. This was 40 years since the Henan temple was burned and 20 years before it was rebuilt. It was about 5 years before Nixon went to China. It was on the heels of the Cultural Revolution. All the very young Sin The’ knows is what his teacher told him. – Su Kong was the Grandmaster – who made me the Grandmaster and now you are the Grandmaster. He is living in central Kentucky. All he sees around him are Japanese karate guys. The few Chinese stylists he meets are no where near a match in skills. He can’t go online and do research. He can’t call around in China asking if there are any Shaolin masters there. Martial arts are by most accounts not being done in the open at all in China. Times have changed and I believe he understands things are different now. However, it is pretty easy to see how one could think “I am the Grandmaster”

[Lamassu]

That's always been my take on GMT's decision as well. Kung fu didn't become popular until a certain Chinese man playing a comic book hero's chauffer on t.v., was discovered in the 1960's. Also the fact that while Chinese immigrants did know and practice kung fu, they kept it a secret and only taught to other Chinese in their community (I'm referring to San Francisco's Chinatown).

Knowing that, I don't fault GMT for claiming Grandmastership of Shaolin back then, in all actuality, he did it for the love of Shaolin. Give the guy a break.

[sean_stonehart]

Eh... I gotta throw the baby in the road on the one.

The NYC Chinatown & SF/LA Chinatown was plenty full of old time, old school CMA teachers. Names like... Wong Jack Man, Lau Bun, Ark Y Wong, Gin Foon Mark, EY Lee, Cheng Man Ching, etc... and others were here in the 60's & earlier.

If Ed Parker new about them in the late 50's, surely a well educated Chinese immigrant to the US with ties to CMA would also.

[Pa Kua]

After reading the countless pages of comments I finally decided to post.

I've been training at a CSC for many years. Here are my thoughts on Shaolin-Do. 1st Question - why is "Shaolin" hyphenated in Shaolin-Do (as in "Shao-lin Do)? Is it semantics?

Advantages:

1. Lineage and claims aside, from a technical standpoint, I think that it is certainly a valid "for real" martial art. The basic aspects of stances, punches are valid, whether or not it is a "karatefied" chinese art or not doesn't really matter to me much. I would however be nice to say that it is true Shaolin Kung Fu. Each of the forms do have practical applications, and while they are shown, it is also up to the individual student to apply them.

2. Where I live it is probably the most cost effective method of learning martial arts. Alot of training hours are offered at a very good monthly rate.


Disadvantages:

1. Because there are so many forms it seems that it is predominantly a "forms learning" environment.

2. The additional required classes greatly increase the overall cost of training. You also have to by a kwan dao which is only used for one form. Why not follow on kwan dao forms?

3. The requirement that a certain number of classes be attended prior to being able to advance can be bothersome.

4. The curriculum is way too rigid. Someone may never be able to learn forms that interest them. Why only learn a few of the black tiger forms and not the rest?

Conclusion - Overall, the schools are well run (the ones I've seen), with a valid curriculum. it all depends on what you make of it.

[Judge Pen]

After reading the countless pages of comments I finally decided to post.

I've been training at a CSC for many years. Here are my thoughts on Shaolin-Do. 1st Question - why is "Shaolin" hyphenated in Shaolin-Do (as in "Shao-lin Do)? Is it semantics?

Advantages:

1. Lineage and claims aside, from a technical standpoint, I think that it is certainly a valid "for real" martial art. The basic aspects of stances, punches are valid, whether or not it is a "karatefied" chinese art or not doesn't really matter to me much. I would however be nice to say that it is true Shaolin Kung Fu. Each of the forms do have practical applications, and while they are shown, it is also up to the individual student to apply them.

2. Where I live it is probably the most cost effective method of learning martial arts. Alot of training hours are offered at a very good monthly rate.


Disadvantages:

1. Because there are so many forms it seems that it is predominantly a "forms learning" environment.

2. The additional required classes greatly increase the overall cost of training. You also have to by a kwan dao which is only used for one form. Why not follow on kwan dao forms?

3. The requirement that a certain number of classes be attended prior to being able to advance can be bothersome.

4. The curriculum is way too rigid. Someone may never be able to learn forms that interest them. Why only learn a few of the black tiger forms and not the rest?

5. The politics! Vegans are "worshipped". If you eat meat, you are a subclass of student. If someone wants to become an assistant instructor then they cannot imbide alcohol. Have to listen to instructors talk about politics and issue anti-U.S. rants when most people are there to learn martial arts.

6. I spoke to a chinese ju jitsu master (verified lineage to China) and he asked what martial arts I have studied. When I mentioned Shaolin-Do, a smirk appeared.

7. The desire of the school and students/instructors to "chinafy" themselves. Carry chopsticks, only read chinese literature, only watch kung fu movies, wear chinese hats, bash the U.S. - this is mainly a pet peeve only. I don't really care about what other people necessarily do. The school definitely has a "cult like" atmosphere with junior students following senior students/instructors actions (herd mentality). Ex. testing to higher belt levels and becoming vegan.


Conclusion - Overall, the schools are well run (the ones I've seen), with a valid curriculum. it all depends on what you make of it.

Thanks for posting. Keep in mind that some of your listed "disadvantages" are unique to your experiences in the CSC (such as the emphasis on vegans--wow, I had never heard that one before).

[sean_stonehart]

6. I spoke to a chinese ju jitsu master (verified lineage to China) and he asked what martial arts I have studied. When I mentioned Shaolin-Do, a smirk appeared.

A what?? Those two words aren't Chinese. One is Japanese, the other is *******ized American/Brazilian.

Is he ethnically Chinese that studies jujutsu or jujitsu?

Also... no such critter as "Chinese jujitsu". There's... Shuai Jiao among others, but not a critter named that just like nothing named "Chinese Kem(n)po" or "Chinese Goju"...

Nobody has said it wasn't a valid martial art. The argument is about its claims on origin, material, training methods, history, etc...