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Thread: Is Shaolin-Do for real?

  1. #7561
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwaichang View Post
    Wrong about the Ju jitsu thing sean i will explain later. KC
    It'll be interesting I'm sure. I spent several years in the early to mid 90's in Japanese arts that weren't karate-do.
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  2. #7562
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    Quote Originally Posted by shaolindoiscool View Post
    i think "pa kua" was speaking of the denver schools with the vegan/politics etc ... not to be confused with the atlanta csc's ...
    Yeah, you're right--CSC Soards not CSC Atlanta. Sorry for the confusion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  3. #7563

    Clarification

    When I spoke of CSCs I wasn't referring to Atlanta CSCs - sorry for any confusion.

    Overall, the CSCs that I have seen are well run (i.e. professional). It's just that the politics get in the way of martial arts instruction and can ruin the experience which they shouldn't.

    KC - can you offer any info on the chinese origins of jujitsu (websites etc)? Thanks!

  4. #7564
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    The Gracie style was created in Brazil in the early part of this century by Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu pioneer Carlos Gracie, who studied traditional Japanese Jujitsu as a teenager under the great Japanese champion, Mitsui Maeda Koma ("Count Koma").

    Carlos Gracie, who was interested in streetfighting and was also a boxer, quickly modified the classical techniques he learned from Count Koma to meet the demands of real, "no rules" fighting in the streets of Brazil.

    SO BJJ CAME FROM JAPAN KC
    A Fool is Born every Day !

  5. #7565
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    Chinese Jujitsu

    The Chinese have a great deal of stories to support the history of their martial arts. The general idea embraced by most historians is that systemized martial arts techniques came from India along with Buddhism (Bodhi Dharma). The concept here is that the Shaolin temple was built in the center of China and this is where Bodhi Dharma introduced Buddhism and Boxing (senzuikyo). (ref. Aikido and Chinese Martial Arts, Sugawara and Xing) The story that supports the idea of Jiu-Jitsu coming from China takes place around the time of the fall of the Ming Dynasty. It states that a man named Chingempin came from Japan to live in Tokyo at a Buddhist temple where he met three Ronin (masterless Samurai) named Fukuno, Isogai, and Miura. Chingempin told the Ronin of a grappling art he had seen in China. The Ronin became particularly interested in pursuing the study of this art, so he then began teaching in Japan, and this art became Jiu-Jitsu.

    Excerpted from Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, The Master Text by Gene Simco. For the complete history, buy the book!
    The next theory is that there was many forms of wrestling that had developed in China. One of the most notable is Horn Wrestling, called Jiaodixi. This form of wrestling was practiced by the Mongolians and later evolved into Jiaoli, which was wrestling without the horns. This form of wrestling can be seen in Native American cultures (evident in the typical Native American Buffalo head wear) and most likely arrived there by way of Mongolians migrating through now modern Alaska. Jiaoli evolved and became Xiangpu and it is said that this form of wrestling became Sumo in Japan. Another theory says that there were practitioners of Chikura Karube, a wrestling sport developed around 200 B.C. It is said that Chikura Karube later became Jiu-Jitsu in Japan.
    THERE YOU GO KC
    A Fool is Born every Day !

  6. #7566
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    JuJitsu

    The first dated mention of ju-jitsu was during the period 772 - 481 B.C. when open-hand techniques were used during the Choon Chu era of China. In A.D. 525 Boddhidrarma, a Zen Buddhist monk, traveled from India to China, visiting the Shaolin monastery. He soon combined Chinese Kempo (Kenpo in Japanese) with Yoga breathing to form Shaolin Chuan Fa - Shorinji Kenpo in Japanese (Shorinji is the Japanese spelling of the Chinese Shaolin. The Shaolin monastery is considered to be the source of Sil Lum Kung Fu). As legend has it, Boddhidrarma eventually developed the system further into what became Go - Shin - Jutsu - Karate (self-defense art of open hand).

    In 230 B.C. the wrestling sport of Chikura Kurabe developed in Japan and was integrated into Ju-Jitsu. Approximately 2,000 years ago there is also mention of the development of wrestling and related techniques that served as the base of Ju-Jitsu. There is evidence that empty - hand techniques were in use during the Heian period (A.D. 794 - 1185) in Japan, but in conjunction with weapons training for samurai. In AD 880 Prince Teijun (also known as Sadagami) formed the Daito - Ryu Aiki Ju-Jitsu School. Daito - Ryu Aiki Ju-Jitsu was based upon the secret teachings of Shugendo (SHU - search, KEN - power, DO - way), the eventual source of Kendo, which used circular hand motions to assist in defending oneself with weapons. It was from this school that Morihei Uyeshiba took portions of the art to start his own system of Aikido in 1925.

    Thought this was interesting KC
    A Fool is Born every Day !

  7. #7567
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwaichang View Post
    The Chinese have a great deal of stories to support the history of their martial arts. The general idea embraced by most historians is that systemized martial arts techniques came from India along with Buddhism (Bodhi Dharma). The concept here is that the Shaolin temple was built in the center of China and this is where Bodhi Dharma introduced Buddhism and Boxing (senzuikyo). (ref. Aikido and Chinese Martial Arts, Sugawara and Xing) The story that supports the idea of Jiu-Jitsu coming from China takes place around the time of the fall of the Ming Dynasty. It states that a man named Chingempin came from Japan to live in Tokyo at a Buddhist temple where he met three Ronin (masterless Samurai) named Fukuno, Isogai, and Miura. Chingempin told the Ronin of a grappling art he had seen in China. The Ronin became particularly interested in pursuing the study of this art, so he then began teaching in Japan, and this art became Jiu-Jitsu.

    Excerpted from Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, The Master Text by Gene Simco. For the complete history, buy the book!
    The next theory is that there was many forms of wrestling that had developed in China. One of the most notable is Horn Wrestling, called Jiaodixi. This form of wrestling was practiced by the Mongolians and later evolved into Jiaoli, which was wrestling without the horns. This form of wrestling can be seen in Native American cultures (evident in the typical Native American Buffalo head wear) and most likely arrived there by way of Mongolians migrating through now modern Alaska. Jiaoli evolved and became Xiangpu and it is said that this form of wrestling became Sumo in Japan. Another theory says that there were practitioners of Chikura Karube, a wrestling sport developed around 200 B.C. It is said that Chikura Karube later became Jiu-Jitsu in Japan.
    THERE YOU GO KC
    Great... theories & stories. Where's the fact? Chinese have been leaving China for Japan (or where ever) long before the Ming Dynasty. One such great exodus was at the end of Tang before the Yuan.... or so the story goes.

    Go pass those stories off to Meik & Diane Skoss. If they say they fly, you'll have me supporting them. Of if you can devine a jujutsu ryu coming from Shaolin from this mini-list, I'll be good to go.
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  8. #7568
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwaichang View Post
    The first dated mention of ju-jitsu was during the period 772 - 481 B.C. when open-hand techniques were used during the Choon Chu era of China. In A.D. 525 Boddhidrarma, a Zen Buddhist monk, traveled from India to China, visiting the Shaolin monastery. He soon combined Chinese Kempo (Kenpo in Japanese) with Yoga breathing to form Shaolin Chuan Fa - Shorinji Kenpo in Japanese (Shorinji is the Japanese spelling of the Chinese Shaolin. The Shaolin monastery is considered to be the source of Sil Lum Kung Fu). As legend has it, Boddhidrarma eventually developed the system further into what became Go - Shin - Jutsu - Karate (self-defense art of open hand).
    Bodidharma not Boddhidrarma... Daruma in Japan.

    Goshin-jutsu... self defense... by itself not a big deal... bring it the states by a green belt of Count Dante & it becomes a create bigger than SD. Check out Gerald Durante... at your own risk.

    Quote Originally Posted by kwaichang View Post
    In 230 B.C. the wrestling sport of Chikura Kurabe developed in Japan and was integrated into Ju-Jitsu. Approximately 2,000 years ago there is also mention of the development of wrestling and related techniques that served as the base of Ju-Jitsu. There is evidence that empty - hand techniques were in use during the Heian period (A.D. 794 - 1185) in Japan, but in conjunction with weapons training for samurai. In AD 880 Prince Teijun (also known as Sadagami) formed the Daito - Ryu Aiki Ju-Jitsu School. Daito - Ryu Aiki Ju-Jitsu was based upon the secret teachings of Shugendo (SHU - search, KEN - power, DO - way), the eventual source of Kendo, which used circular hand motions to assist in defending oneself with weapons. It was from this school that Morihei Uyeshiba took portions of the art to start his own system of Aikido in 1925.

    Thought this was interesting KC
    Daito-ryu Aikijutsu ... nearly as flammable... just like Ueshiba studying Bagua while in Manchuria during the Sino-Japanese War where he could "see bullets" as they were fired at him... like ... (fill in appropriate SD reference)
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  9. #7569
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    3seperate references go figure there are more no time to waste on this KC
    A Fool is Born every Day !

  10. #7570
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    eric smith

    was master eric smith at the gathering? If so did he do any demos, if yes what did he do?

  11. #7571
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    This is why I hate debating lineage....eventually everyone's lineage gets to the little old man on the mountain or the wandering monk or something else as equally unverifiable as a founder or revolutionary mind in the development of a style. It makes for great story time, but that's about it. It would be interesting to list a bunch of well-respected styles, and trace their lineage back to the controverisal character--the one no one can really prove outside of stories (a) that he even existed or (b) that he actually had a hand in developing the art.

    For example, Yeu Fei anyone? How many styles can be attributed to him?
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  12. #7572
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    Right JP May the force be with you Saturday. Sounds like Sean was burned by SD or someone in it much like WS KC
    A Fool is Born every Day !

  13. #7573
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    39 years old

    The traditional Chinese martial art known as Eagle Claw (Yīng Zhǎo Pài 鷹爪派) is one of the oldest and most complex of the surviving Northern Shaolin kung fu systems.[citation needed] Along with the long strikes and kicks that typify Northern systems, the Eagle Claw system is distinguished by its gripping techniques and system of joint locks, takedowns, and pressure point strikes, which represent one of the oldest forms of the Chinese grappling known as Chin Na.

    Contents [hide]
    1 History
    1.1 Yue Fei
    1.1.1 Elephant Fist
    1.2 Shaolin Temple
    1.3 Secret Art
    1.4 Liu Shi Jun and Liu Cheng You
    1.5 Chin Woo Athletic Association
    1.6 Lineages
    2 Training
    3 Movies
    4 References



    [edit] History
    While the details of the history alter according to the teller, with names and places shifting as they tend to do in any oral history, in essence the story of Eagle Claw began in the Shaolin Temple and in Chinese military training, became a family tradition passed on from parent to child for generations, and eventually shed its air of secrecy with the advent of public martial arts schools.


    [edit] Yue Fei
    Eagle Claw is said to have had its origins in 1130,from Yue Fei岳飛 (Ngok Fei) who lived at a time of warfare between the Southern Song Dynasty and the Jurchen who later founded Jin Dynasty (the Jurechen were the ancestors of the Manchus of the Qing Dynasty).

    Yue Fei credited his victories in battle to his martial arts training under Zhao Tong 周侗(Jow Tong)and Chen Guang 陈广. These skills included Archery, hand to hand combat, spear, horsemanship, etc.

    His Hand Skills became known as the Yī Bǎi Ling Bā Qín Ná(Yat Ling Bat Kahm Na) (一百零八擒拿 – “108 Seize-Grab”) techniques, which were supposedly based on a much older system only known as “Elephant Fist象拳”, and focused on seizing, locking, and pressure point strikes.

    These 108 techniques became the staple of his new style called Ying Quan/Shou 鷹拳/手 - Eagle Fist/Hand which he taught to his soldiers.


    [edit] Elephant Fist
    In Chinese, elephant is pronounced Xiàng (象). However, the same character can also mean "shape, form, or appearance". The elephant style in question might be a mistranslation of xiang, which actually refers to Xiang Xing Quan (象形拳 - "Imitation Boxing"), a fighting technique which emphasizes the imitation of the offensive and defensive actions of a certain animal or person.


    [edit] Shaolin Temple
    In the late Ming Dynasty Yue Fei's material is said to have made a re-appearance at a Shaolin Temple少林寺. Li Quan Seng(麗泉)Lai Chin)an expert in the Fānziquán Style encountered soldiers practicing the hand techniques they called Ying Quan (Ying Kuen) Eagle Fist.

    After taking the time to learn and master these skills he undertook the daunting task of combining them into his pre-existing Fanziquan sets.

    He called his new system Ying Quan (鷹拳)


    [edit] Secret Art
    In 1644 the Ming Dynasty was ovethrown and replaced by the Qing Dynasty (1644-1911). Royal family members of the fallen Ming Household went into hiding, with many becoming monks, scholars and artists.

    Zhu Ruoji (1642 - 1707) aka Yuanji ****AO,was a low level prince and 2 years of age when the Ming Dynasty fell.

    Later on in his life he took the name Dao Ji(道濟僧)(Toa Gai)

    Dao Ji(道濟僧)(Toa Gai) had received martial arts instruction as part of his official education. It is no known if Eagle Claw was part of that instruction while in the Imperial Palace or after he had become a Monk.

    Fa Seng(法成僧)(Fat Sheng)was another Martial Monk. It is unclear whether he was a classmate of Dao Ji or his student.


    [edit] Liu Shi Jun and Liu Cheng You
    Liu Shi Jun(劉士俊) is considered the founder (Sijo) of the Eagle Claw System yīng zhuǎ fān zi quán (鷹爪翻子拳 ).

    At a young age he enjoyed martial arts and had many teachers from various styles. Around middle age he learned from two eminent monks of the time - Fa Seng(法成僧)Fat Sheng then (Dao Ji(道濟僧)(Toa Gai).

    Late in his career he obtained a position of Martial Arts Instructor at one of the military barracks in the Capital, Beijing where he instructed the troops in his martial arts which consisted of Fist and Spear skills.

    His 2 most prominent students of that period were Liu Dekuan(劉德寬)and Ji Zixiu纪子修.

    At this point the system was not known as Eagle Claw but Bafanshou/Bashanfan 八閃翻; (8 flash/evasive tumbles"), or Fanziquan 翻子拳 (Reversing/tumbling Fist).

    He was also known as "Dai Gong Ji Liu" Great Sage Liu for his expertise in his Dai Liu He Qiang (big 6 harmony Spear)


    Liu Chen You(劉成有) 1st learned martial arts from his uncle Liu Dekuan(劉德寬) who had been a student of Liu Shi Jun when stationed in Beijing. He continued his instruction under other other prominent martial artist of the region. When Liu Shi Jun retired back to his home village Liu Chen You received advanced training from him.

    Liu Chen You was a very strict teacher and only accepted a few students. Of those who were considered competent 3 were : Liu Qi Wen (劉啟文), Chen Zizheng (陳子正)and Zhang Zhan Wen.


    [edit] Chin Woo Athletic Association
    The Chin Woo Athletic Association 精武體育會 was an founded by the famed martial artist Huo Yuanjia 霍元甲(Fawk Yun Gop) in Shangahi. Its purpose was the dissemination of not only Martial Arts but sports and other educational systems to the public.

    The Eagle Claw system remained relatively restricted to the Xiong County 雄县, Baoding City 保定 in Hebei Province 河北 until Chen Zizheng (Chan Tzi Ching) was invited to teach at the Chin Wu.

    After initial success with the 1st School in Shanghai Chen ZiZheng went to his training brother Liu Qi Wen to offer his students careers as Martial Arts instructors in the Chin Woo Association. In time Eagle Claw was being taught in Shangahi, Hong Kong, Guandong, Futsan, Singapore, Malaysia etc.

    It is for this reason that many of todays exponents also teach numerous other sets/forms which were acquired by their teachers who had learned in the Chin Woo Schools.


    [edit] Lineages
    There are 3 main Eagle Claw Lineages that most teachers/schools can trace their style to.

    Liu Qiwen(劉啟文)(Lau Kai Man),

    Chen Zizheng (陳子正)(Chan Tzi Ching)

    Zhang Zhan Wen(Chian Jin Man).

    For specific school listings you can visit the

    Eagle Claw Kung Fu Society (listed in the reference section)


    [edit] Training
    How the Eagle Claw system is taught varies between each teachers skill and experiences. What is consistent of an Eagle Claw Master is their knowledge of the 3 core sets of the style.

    Xin Quan 行拳(Hahng Kuen) is known as the Walking Fist. This set consists of 10-12 Rows of technqiues representative of the founding elements of the style. (Shaolin Quan, Fanzi Quan and Yue Shi San Shou).

    Lian Quan 連拳(Lin Kuen) is known as the Linking Fist. A very important set in that it not only provides the exponent with an encyclopedic base of various Seizing, Grappling and Joint Locks but a set that incoporates various Qi Gong Skills as well.

    Yue Shi San Shou aka Yī Bǎi Ling Bā Qín Ná 一百零八擒拿(Yat Ling Bat Kahm Na)– “108 Seize Grab” aka 108 Locking Hands is considered the "Heart" of the Eagle Claw System. Believed to be the material passed down by the legendary Yue Fei of China's Song Dynasty. This material is 108 different categories of skills/techniques that are trained to a level of pefection with partners.

    Missing any of the 3 core sets will severely hinder a students hope of mastering this style.
    Sounds iffy to me KC
    A Fool is Born every Day !

  14. #7574
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwaichang View Post
    Right JP May the force be with you Saturday. Sounds like Sean was burned by SD or someone in it much like WS KC
    Burned?? Not quite... I just ask questions that people like to dodge for some reason. Until I get an answer, I keep asking.

    BTW... what's iffy about Ying Jow? Or was that out of context sarcasm?
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  15. #7575
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    Quote Originally Posted by sean_stonehart View Post
    Burned?? Not quite... I just ask questions that people like to dodge for some reason. Until I get an answer, I keep asking.

    BTW... what's iffy about Ying Jow? Or was that out of context sarcasm?
    Nothing's "iffy" about it except the extent of Yue Fei's involvment. Some sources of Hsing Ie also attribute their art as developed by Yue Fei as well. He seems to be a popular figure to attribute the origins of a style to.

    Note, I'm not debating the lineage of Ying Jow or Hsing Ie. Just noting that Yue Fei gets a lot of credit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

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