Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Golden Tiger]

Or how they do millions of 'styles' yet can't get the mechanics correct for any of them?

I would be more than happy to discuss the mechanics used in any of the styles that SD teaches. All you have to do is ask.

Or the fact they do one-step sparring, fight like Karate guys, move like Karate guys, but do 'Chinese' forms.

I have seen many forms done by both and while we don't have the flowery, dance-like movents of wushu, we certianly don't move like the karateka either.

Of course, no one would really care if Sin The' didn't make such outrageous claims.

While I haven't been able to keep up with his schedule lately, I do know that he will be in Ky. in the month of March. MS duex, you are invited to come down and ask him about these claims person to person. Heck, I'll even put you up at my house. I have the extra room.

[MonkeySlap Too]

I'd be happy too, although I am in busy season during March. Anything available in late fall? Can you cover air-fare as well? I'm not that interested to spend the money myself, as it seems more for your edification than mine. I'm a gracious guest, and really do get on well people, even those I disagree with.

Or - I am hosting "Silat-A-Palooza" a get together for West Javanese martial arts in San Jose this November. PM me your e-mail, I'll send details.

Or - I'll be at a ACSCA Combat Shuai Chiao tournament in Chicago with a team of fighters. These are friendly competitions, usually devoid of the chest-beating you'll see at some fights. I can even arrange crash-space in Chicago. You'll get to meet some great CMA folks, and if you like take part in informal free-fighting sessions. No tropihies, no awards, just practice against people from around the country. All school welcome.

As far as the mechanics go - where do I start? Everything looks the same in SD. Everything looks like Karate mechanics. The Xing Yi - OMG, what is it? Maybe you could help me understand what the SD guys are doing there... cause it's unlike anything I've ever seen, and the 'old' argument doesn't hold water as a.) I've met guys from the villiages Xing-Yi evolved from and b.) It's just wrong, man for ANY school of Xing Yi.

BRAD: No, I'm just commenting that their movements look like Karate, one-step sparring and all. I find the 'no flowery motions' rationale very funny, as it reinforces my position.

[themeecer]

The Xing Yi - OMG, what is it? Maybe you could help me understand what the SD guys are doing there... cause it's unlike anything I've ever seen, and the 'old' argument doesn't hold water as a.) I've met guys from the villiages Xing-Yi evolved from and b.) It's just wrong, man for ANY school of Xing Yi.

What Hsing I have you seen? I haven't seen any online clips of a SD practioner doing it. I know what mine looks like, and besides the dragon, mine looks like what I would consider authentic hsing I. (My dragon is improving as my body heals)

[Fu-Pow]

What Hsing I have you seen? I haven't seen any online clips of a SD practioner doing it. I know what mine looks like, and besides the dragon, mine looks like what I would consider authentic hsing I. (My dragon is improving as my body heals)

Actually, Shaolin Center used to have a "Hsing-Yi" video up.

Unfortunately, they took down all their neat-o vids. They do have a bang up list of new DVDs available.....with some trailers available!

http://www.shaolinlegends.com/videos.html

Have fun kids!

Also, I came across the lineage and I noticed that they've dropped the hairy guy out of the lineage. In addition, a "grandmaster" and "master" are now higher in rank than a "sifu." Who'd a thunk it?

http://www.shaolincenter.com/lineage.html

[MonkeySlap Too]

Meecer, this is the problem with you guys - what you think it should look like is not relevant. If I said my BJJ looks pretty good I'll get laughed out of town by the BJJers, as I'm only imitating it. If you don't what something is in the first place, it's hard to be a competant judge of it. Peer review, my friend.

Now admittedly there is a wide variety of Xing Yi out there, some more sophisticated than others - but one thing every Xing-Yi guy I know agrees on - what was on that Atlanta site ain't Xing-Yi.

I've met some SD guys - from first hand experience I can tell you - it ain't Xing-Yi. Go post some files over at Empty Flower - don't tell them it's SD. See what happens.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Look,
I'm also a teacher of KTS DeThouras. It's a hodge podge art. I wrestled with some of things stated about the source material, but it worked, so I did not care. However, when encountering some pretty sophisticated Xing-Yi players - they could see the links to thier art that I did not see. But here is the catch WD just says 'hey this is what I practice.' He NEVER claims to be doing THE original version/ Shaolin version of anything. Just what he does. So if it's a hodge podge of stuff, no one really cares.

But you guys say 'look - this IS Xing Yi, Ba Gua, Preying Mantis, etc... and it just isn't.

Sorry.

[themeecer]

We are no longer affiliated with the Atlanta school. So I can not vouch for what they are teaching. I wish I could have seen that hsing I clip before it was removed.

But you guys say 'look - this IS Xing Yi, Ba Gua, Preying Mantis, etc... and it just isn't.

Mine is. Period.(At least my Pa Qua and Hsing I is. I'm not a fan of preying mantis.)

Sorry.

No you're not. You people live for this stuff.

[lxtruong]

For some reason I find that martial artists are overall some of the nosiest bunch I've ever seen. Why should anyone care anything about anyone else's style? Heck, I find that even at the dojo everyone is always up in everyone's business. Head down and keep on punching and kicking, that's my policy.

On a totally unrelated note, I just learned Dragon Hsing-Ie last thursday and it pwns me. I suck.

[Golden Tiger]

MS2,

I can only say that along with the things I was taught, I was(am) able to generate power, root myself, absorb and deflect (some) energy and do other things asscoiated with the styles I have been shown. Correct or not, it has worked well for me over the past 30 years.

As for your invitation, thanks for the offer. I do get out to the left coast ocassionally also to Chicago so I might try to take you up on your offer. I'll pm you if it looks like a go. As for competing, I gave that up many years ago but a friendly exchange of information would be nice.


Fu-Pow:

Thanks for the link. I rarely go to that site since there was a parting of the ways a while back. It is interesting that that school decided to remove Su Kong from the lineage. It is also interesting that that school was the one that wanted to change uniforms to the frog button ones. Perhaps the pressure to "fit in" as a CMA is guiding their discissions...who know?

[Jhapa]

dammn, when will this die.................

from what i have seen, SD ba gua(or pa kua) is not even good, poor form, it's all rushed, well what i have seen here in Texas. my schools head instructor's teacher is taught buy elder master leonard, so what he is taught is trickled down to us. the forms that are taught are rushed, you learn it so you can get to the next level. the classes are only an hour long and for the 1st 15 minutes we are doing warm ups and only work on forms for about 20 to 30 minutes. also, why is all instructors called sifu/shifu, i thought only the head instructor is supposed to be called sifu.

[MonkeySlap Too]

GT - my active competition days are over too... but this is a 'friendly' environment to try new stuff out on resisting opponents..

But if your ever out NorthLeft, give me a PM. If I'm around, Beer is on me. I tried to hook up with JP once, but the one weekend he picked was my High school reunion - which after going, I think I would have rather hung out with JP.


Real question: What is considered the 'core' training in SD? What are the strategy assumptions around it?

[MonkeySlap Too]

We are no longer affiliated with the Atlanta school. So I can not vouch for what they are teaching. I wish I could have seen that hsing I clip before it was removed.

REPLY: You'll find it looks exactly like all the other SD I've seen, including Sin The's.

Mine is. Period.(At least my Pa Qua and Hsing I is. I'm not a fan of preying mantis.)

REPLY: So you've learned it somewhere else?

No you're not. You people live for this stuff.

REPLY: "you people" - funny. Nope. Just stating the obvious. I've stopped caring a long time ago. And you'll note except for a few obvious frauds (SD, OYD/CMD) and an occasional pr!ck, I pretty much refrain from criticizing anyone. And I'm not criticizisng SD, I'm just reflecting on what it is versus what they say it is. Heck if you go back far enough, I was probably the guy that pointed out how the gi's don't autmatically disqualify it from being CMA or IMA. I'm not out to persecute anybody - I'm just holding thier toes to the fire a little when I think something is dishonest. Sorry. Really, I am.

[Judge Pen]

I tried to hook up with JP once, but the one weekend he picked was my High school reunion - which after going, I think I would have rather hung out with JP.


Real question: What is considered the 'core' training in SD? What are the strategy assumptions around it?

My gf at the time ended up hanging with me in San Fran and, truth be told, I'd would of rather hung out with you even though I was in no physical condition to dispel any of your ideas of SD. Still can't, but I'm working on it (knee is still healing and all). As for core training, I've said it before, it's the short forms. We spend the longest time on them and they introduce the majority of techniques that are found, with variations, in later forms. As for the "one-step" sparring and sparring techniques, I've always considered these to be drills to isolate techniques from forms: Nothing more. Drilling isn't the exclusive purview of karate, imo.

Jhapa, you are 100% correct. Most forms are rushed and taught sloppily. It's a problem that most SD (my own school included at times) can fall into. GT learned at a different time when they didn't learn as much material and didn't rush through it, so his opinion always has my ear (even the things we don't always see eye to eye on).

And Meece, the Hsing-I clip was of Master Reid. It was linkage. It was the same form as I know, move for move, but I could quibble about the power generation in that clip. But, then again, Master Reid is a very large man and very quick for his size. I have no doubt he could wipe the floor with me.

[Judge Pen]

REPLY: "you people" - funny. Nope. Just stating the obvious. I've stopped caring a long time ago. And you'll note except for a few obvious frauds (SD, OYD/CMD) and an occasional pr!ck, I pretty much refrain from criticizing anyone. And I'm not criticizisng SD, I'm just reflecting on what it is versus what they say it is. Heck if you go back far enough, I was probably the guy that pointed out how the gi's don't autmatically disqualify it from being CMA or IMA. I'm not out to persecute anybody - I'm just holding thier toes to the fire a little when I think something is dishonest. Sorry. Really, I am.

Yep, you were one of the few here to not fuss about that point with SD as well as note that the story about the Indonesian prosecution could be plausible. And while I could criticize much of Atlanta's forms, there were an equal number that I could not criticize (some of the criticisms were as much or more about the peopel performing them than the way the material was passed down). . . . So I really can't say much to your criticisms. I can share my techniques with you if we ever meet up (with a disclaimer as to what techniques I can't do correctly anyway) and see what your opinions are. If you think it's junk CMA/IMA/JMA then so be it. I'm confident that I can make it work for me against the majority of people out there, but I have no delusions of fighting a MA who trains to fight competitively. I just don't train with that intensity.

One day, I'd love to have some friendly sparring with your group though. That would be fun.

[Fu-Pow]

Look,
But here is the catch WD just says 'hey this is what I practice.' He NEVER claims to be doing THE original version/ Shaolin version of anything. Just what he does. So if it's a hodge podge of stuff, no one really cares.

But you guys say 'look - this IS Xing Yi, Ba Gua, Preying Mantis, etc... and it just isn't.

Sorry.

That's the crux of the whole matter.