Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[peace&love]

Maybe SD has just copyrighted the name and its use, but it does seem that they have referred to specifically the material. It is a bit odd. A lot of the forms have been taught in other systems and styles. That seems to happen a lot in kung fu.

Anyway, I have decided to take a little break from SD after a recent classroom incident was not handled as professionally as I would have liked, and do some meditation on it. My current SD school is very small and has not grown in the past year. If anything, we have lost students, and after a little time to think, I may be gone as well. It is unfortunate because we are in an area where we should have a ton of students. I believe a lack of seriousness on most of the practitioners has a lot to do with it. Also, many of the senior students were studying elsewhere with other systems at the same time. The head instructor was doing the same. This could have been time spent training us with more class options or using the time to get the word out on the school so it could potentially grow. We have some great people there, but they just don't have the time it seems.

Fortunately, some more traditional kung fu schools have opened since my original sifu had to close his school down due to family matter a little over a year ago. I'm going to check them out and keep an open mind. The local SD school has promised to make some changes in attitudes and teaching methods immediately, but it may be a little to late. I will keep an eye out and see what happens.

I hope all on the forum have a great Thanksgiving.

[B-Rad]

I was on the Mullins website looking at the forms database and it states that all material is copywrited and cannot be taught without permission of GM sin or Master Mullins.
Can you actually copywrite material in a system? I mean all the other students GM Ie had that could be teaching this material or Hiang The' who teaches much of the same material are breaching a copywrite on forms?!
My question is does he have a legal right to do this?

Could have copyrighted the specific training program (learn this for red belt, this for black, etc.). Seeing as how much material was "borrowed" from other systems, he obviously couldn't enforce any kind of copyright on the material itself individually. The actual belt system curriculum though is a modern invention, so if he came up with it himself he could copyright it as a whole, I think. The explanation could be poorly written, not understood well by Mullens, or they're just bullshi*ting to discourage random students from stealing their curriculum and starting their own school.

[kwaichang]

The matter has been settled in court and the individual that was taken to court no longer teaches SD as a whole or in part. He was also a student of Mullins a long time back KC

[bodhi warrior]

The matter has been settled in court and the individual that was taken to court no longer teaches SD as a whole or in part. He was also a student of Mullins a long time back KC

So does this mean Sin The won the settlement or the student?

[kwaichang]

Grand Master Sin The won KC

[bodhi warrior]

Grand Master Sin The won KC

So when you say GM Sin won the case, do you mean he does have the copywrite on the forms he teaches or the structure that the forms are taught in? If i'm no longer part of the organization can I still teach the forms that I learned?

[kwaichang]

My understanding is if you teach the forms and the style you are in direct competition with the school that taught you , most schools have a no competition clause but why would you want to teach something from a style you quit or do not believe in ?? KC

[bodhi warrior]

My understanding is if you teach the forms and the style you are in direct competition with the school that taught you , most schools have a no competition clause but why would you want to teach something from a style you quit or do not believe in ?? KC

I never quit my art. I still practice everyday, I just chose to narrow my focus on what I know instead of piling on more forms.
And I do believe in the art as it used to be taught in the old days, which is the way I still train, conditioning, sparring, and a more narrow focus on forms.
I do not believe in the art as it is taught today. Promoting people to master level who obviously have no real skills, but are allowed to teach. This apparent need to add more and more forms for whatever reason ($).
I remember seeing this guy in a demo a couple years ago. He was a 4th black doing drunken spear. This guy dropped the spear numerous times, his spins were slow and weak and yet he was a 4th black!? This is just one example. There are many. If he was a brown belt or 1st black maybe, but 4th?

And I still dont see how Sin can copywrite forms he didn't create.

[kwaichang]

Ok ,well it has been my understanding that one is promoted as compared to what the were at the beginning or for personal growth. If no one was promoted that couldnt do the forms perfectly then no one would progress. Some of the BB forms have the front or side splits in them . Can you do them ?? Most cant then should they be held back ?? Not all MA are gifted some just continue to train and improve more slowly , Kung Fu is effort not skill. KC

[bodhi warrior]

Ok ,well it has been my understanding that one is promoted as compared to what the were at the beginning or for personal growth. If no one was promoted that couldnt do the forms perfectly then no one would progress. Some of the BB forms have the front or side splits in them . Can you do them ?? Most cant then should they be held back ?? Not all MA are gifted some just continue to train and improve more slowly , Kung Fu is effort not skill. KC

Kung fu is effort over time whose purpose is to accomplish skill. If you put the time and effort in you will get the skill and it will show.
As far as being held back, if part of the testing is say doing a back flip or something along those lines in one of the drunken immortals, and you can't do the required skill to complete that form correctly then I say yes hold them back.
If I can't do a specific skill in a form after years of practice then I don't need to be testing for the next rank. I should keep practicing.

[kwaichang]

So as you judge you will be judged, I suppose you did all your Forms perfectly then?? Probably not but you progressed anyway. Kung fu says nothing of skill that is your definition it is just effort. KC

[Leto]

I never quit my art. I still practice everyday, I just chose to narrow my focus on what I know instead of piling on more forms.
And I do believe in the art as it used to be taught in the old days, which is the way I still train, conditioning, sparring, and a more narrow focus on forms.
I do not believe in the art as it is taught today. Promoting people to master level who obviously have no real skills, but are allowed to teach. This apparent need to add more and more forms for whatever reason ($).
I remember seeing this guy in a demo a couple years ago. He was a 4th black doing drunken spear. This guy dropped the spear numerous times, his spins were slow and weak and yet he was a 4th black!? This is just one example. There are many. If he was a brown belt or 1st black maybe, but 4th?

And I still dont see how Sin can copywrite forms he didn't create.

I hear you, I'm in the same spot.

I was thinking about copyrighting forms, and I suppose it's about the same thing as dance choreography. And apparently dance choreography can be copyrighted.
http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl119.html

You just have to have a video of the choreographed piece, or a detailed written description.

in fact, I found the shaolin do copyright from 1990, and it is in fact under the category of dramatic work and music or choreography. Submitted in the form of a videocassette
I think the actual copyright was discussed on the thread before.

this is from the US copyright office website, where you can look up anything copyrighted since 1978

Type of Work: Dramatic Work and Music; or Choreography
Registration Number / Date: PAu001493404 / 1990-08-09
Title: Shaolin do.
Description: videocassette.
Notes: Cataloged from appl.
Copyright Claimant: Sin Kwang The
Date of Creation: 1980
Authorship on Application: Sin Kwang The.
Previous Registration: Martial arts movements preexisting.
Basis of Claim: New Matter: selection & ordering of exercises.
Copyright Note: C.O. correspondence.

I'm not exactly sure what this all means. Also, we don't know exactly what was on that videotape that was submitted. And I wonder does he continue to submit videos and copyright the new material that comes out, or is it technically only that which was part of the system in 1990?

certainly, 24 posture taiji, the jiang rong quiao's classical bagua form, the xingyi five elements and 12 animals, and many others in the system, cannot be copyrighted as they are widely taught and available for learning from many sources. And it's a good point about Hiang The and Ie Chang Ming's other students...they learned much of the same material, but not from Sin The. So the actual forms could not be copyrighted, except for those which Gm The invented himself. It would interesting to see what was on the video tape or tapes he submitted.
The main thing is the order in which the forms are taught, which comprises the system. If you leave some forms out, or teach them in a different order, then you're not violating the copyright, I think. Anyway, as long as someone doesn't stay too close to their old school or shaolin do, they could easily get away with teaching whatever they want. I know for a fact there are people out there teaching some of the material they learned in shaolin do or CSC in their own schools.
If someone changed the name of the school, organized things a little bit differently, added or removed things, then I don't think they would be in violation of the copyright.

[MasterKiller]

My understanding is if you teach the forms and the style you are in direct competition with the school that taught you , most schools have a no competition clause but why would you want to teach something from a style you quit or do not believe in ?? KC

It's my understanding that he did not win the legal case. I thought it was settled and the other part just agreed to not call what he taught "Shaolin-Do."

We discussed this back on page 426, and TattooedMonk's answer matched what one of Barry Van Over's students told me

He lost the right to teach the art as it was structured, but could not be stopped from teaching the material . Because he did not want to stir things up any further he chose not to teach it anymore. But from what I heard he still teaches it in a smaller capacity.Just what I heard. it was either the Soards or Master Sin himself that told me this or someone in their circle.

[Judge Pen]

It's my understanding that he did not win the legal case. I thought it was settled and the other part just agreed to not call what he taught "Shaolin-Do."

We discussed this back on page 426, and TattooedMonk's answer matched what one of Barry Van Over's students told me

It was settled out of Court so there's no record of who "won" or "lost"--it was compromised and then voluntarily dismissed; however, my understanding is that Van Over agreed not to teach the forms as structured. The techniques could be re-ordered and new forms created from the techniques. I know several people that have trained at his schools. Their stuff is a mix-mash of forms made up by Van Over or from seminars and forms that Van Over became "certified" to teach such as his Krav Maga program.

The issue of whether SD can enforce its apparent copyright has not been litigated fully. Until a Court rules that it is not enforceable, then legally you can assume he has a valid copyright over the core material and the material that is taught only in SD. The other material that was referenced is widely taught and would fall into the category of public domain.

[shen ku]

i heard in this way, from master sin ,,,,,on dvd,,,,, the case became not a copyright thing but a "trade secret" issue...... trade secret has jail time to it?? it was seteled out of court that he could only teach up to and not past SDs 1st brown level,,,, i did have an articl somewhere ,,years ago ,, that had vanover selling our 2nd brown bird forms on dvd, it was with dillimans group.......
i had another articl,from MAsuccess mag. that roughly layed out how his ranking system went,,, not listing the material... 6 low level belts at that time (basic drills and toury. type forms) and 6 high rank,,,, you would speicalize in tourny forms, tranitional weapons,, and such was how you got higher ranking,,,,,but master sin does state this about the trade secret and what he was allowed to do on a dvd,