Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[themeecer]

Your statement demonstrates what you do not know. I don't think I'll need to see you to pass judgement on your skill. Your 'knowledge' demonstrates for me everything I need to know.

The desert isle hypothesis does not preclude that you won't learn how to fight - but it will preclude you from actually understanding the 'form'.

Ok, while I am thumping upside your head with my Hsing I, you are going to be laying on the ground saying ... "yeah but you don't actually understand the form." Freakin hilarious.

Here's the big secret:
The secrets to kung fu fighting skill is NOT in the forms. And if you don't have those keys, you will never unlock the knowledge/skill. Forms are just devices used to help students remember what is in the suitcase. There are benefits to forms training. But the real benefits only come out when you know what was put in the suitcase in the first place.

Your statement demonstrates your 'knowledge,' the secrets are in the forms. Just because you can't seem to find them doesn't mean they don't exist. Forms were created as a method for a teacher to pass his knowledge down to his students and on to future generations. The best way to do that is to allow the students to 'feel' what the teacher feels when he is fighting. So teacher puts together a set of his fighting techniques in a combined flowing form. Through thousands of repetitions the student learns to move in the way his teacher does and the mechanics, conditions the body, gets the form into 'muscle memory' that can be pulled out without thinking, works out hundreds of applications and incorporates it into their fighting style.

You should think about the morality of the teachers that pass down such nonsense.

I am one said teachers and don't question my morality. I make such statements on experience.

[MonkeySlap Too]

I rest my case.

I couldn't demonstrate what you don't understand any better than you do yourself.

Good luck with all that.

[themeecer]

Fine .. rest your case.

You continue to make assumptions of people you have never met and practice your superior web-fu skills and I'll continue to base my opinions on experience.

[MonkeySlap Too]

I am one said teachers and don't question my morality. I make such statements on experience.

REPLY: Sure I will. Just because you *think* it is so, doesn't make it so.

The Benjamin D'israeli (I think) quote paraphrased here serves best:

"The words of the clever man are always misunderstood by the stupid man as he transforms them into something he can understand."

[Fu-Pow]

Forms were created as a method for a teacher to pass his knowledge down to his students and on to future generations. The best way to do that is to allow the students to 'feel' what the teacher feels when he is fighting.

What do you mean by "feel?"

So teacher puts together a set of his fighting techniques in a combined flowing form. Through thousands of repetitions the student learns to move in the way his teacher does and the mechanics, conditions the body, gets the form into 'muscle memory' that can be pulled out without thinking, works out hundreds of applications and incorporates it into their fighting style.

Ok.

I am one said teachers and don't question my morality. I make such statements on experience.

The "culture" of Shaolin-Do needs to evolve and transcend where it is now. You people have bought into the "myth" of Shaolin-Do. Even though there is a myriad of independent evidence that has been brought up against "the myth" the SD guys, at least on this forum continue to support it.

The problem with unchallenged "myths" is that they often support hierarchical power structures within an organization. Participants of your organization "don't care" if the "the myth" aspect of Shaolin-Do is true or not because it supports their own position within the organization. Starting from the top down....ie Sin The.

In order to transcend you guys need to evolve into an organization that challenges "the myth" and checks your knowledge with independent sources for "peer review." Your culture needs to step up into the world of rationality and objectivity.

Again, as before, its not just Shaolin-Do, its just that Shaolin-Do is an easy target for this kind of criticism...mostly because of the shameless self-promotion of its leaders.

[Thunaric]

Hello all, new to this forum.

I've been going to a Shaolin-do school for about two years. For alot of reasons, many already stated by others on this thread, I am going to look around at some other schools. To the point though, I feel there is this rush to learn forms without learning what to do with them. It has been my first experience with a martial arts school and in general has been a positive experience. Still, I feel there is something missing. We'll see what I find out.

Cheers

[wdl]

Hello all, new to this forum.

Welcome.

Where do you train?

-Will

[MonkeySlap Too]

Take a careful look at whatever you check out. MOST ma is pretty suspect... Obviously I would not recommend an SD school, but that does automatically mean the non-SD schools in your area are any better. Example - despite my obvious concerns about the accuracy of any of the SD claims, I think they're Karate-like body language is probably preferable to say, TKD body language.

so - buyer beware... the last thing you'd want to do is jump from questionable to downright bad.

Remember, most of these guys are repeating what they were taught with no critical thinking appplied. But we've also seen there are honest, self-reflective fellows out there who enjoy thier SD and take the claims of the system and the legion of forms with a grain of salt and feel what they get is better than what else is available to them...

[Judge Pen]

Take a careful look at whatever you check out. MOST ma is pretty suspect... Obviously I would not recommend an SD school, but that does automatically mean the non-SD schools in your area are any better. Example - despite my obvious concerns about the accuracy of any of the SD claims, I think they're Karate-like body language is probably preferable to say, TKD body language.

so - buyer beware... the last thing you'd want to do is jump from questionable to downright bad.

Remember, most of these guys are repeating what they were taught with no critical thinking appplied. But we've also seen there are honest, self-reflective fellows out there who enjoy thier SD and take the claims of the system and the legion of forms with a grain of salt and feel what they get is better than what else is available to them...

Hey, we've moved up in the world: We are just "questionable" instead of "downright bad" depending on what else is available!

Thunaric, it's a shame that the rush of forms is pushing you to leave. All arguments about lineage, purity, and myth aside, the push for new material before the old material is second nature bugs me because I see it often in schools. Good luck in your search and pm me if you have any questions you don't want to post here.

[Golden Tiger]

Remember, most of these guys are repeating what they were taught with no critical thinking appplied.

I would have to disagree with that MS2. There have been 1000's of people that have trained in SD. Of those, you have seen clips of 5 perhaps, suffered through keyboard sparring matches with 10 or so and trained under 1? 2? tops. So to say most is misleading. I have attended classes where for 2 hours, the entire subject discussed was limited to how to throw a hook kick. Whether you would agree that it was right or not is beside the point but that it took a heck of a lot of critical thinking to be able to do it is without question. Some of my personal students were doctors, lawyers, educators, dentists, etc. so in essence, you are saying that those people that are entrusted with the well being of others are mindless dolts.

Statements like this is about the only thing that gets to me in this big SD debate. It always seems to be implied that people that study SD are not capable of knowing what is a good MA and what is bad. That they blindly play follow the leader and will never be a true MAist because of it. I have been doing this for close to 30 years. Personally I don't consider myself a great MAist because it never was my primary goal. Most of the time its painful and with few exceptions you darn sure can't make a living off it. But while I would never be considered great, I have learned a lot. I can defend myself or my family if need be. I was at one time in better shape than I would have been if not for studying SD. I know how to generate power with very little motion. I can manipulate someone through lock and holds because of the mechanics I have learned in SD.

So please, don't assume that most who have studied SD have wasted their time until you have matched your skill set against theirs.


Sorry, late night and too much caffine.


PS. UK 71-UT 63........

[Judge Pen]

PS. UK 71-UT 63........

Wait until football season.

[MonkeySlap Too]

I have. Didn't think much of it.

I never implied the followers of SD were idiots, just they accepted things without critical thinking. Everyone does this about a plethora of subjects, every day in their lives, without even noticing it. Just because someone is a doctor, lawyer, or educator, does not mean they are very bright in every aspect of their lives.

However, if you are teaching a subject, I think you are morally bound to question it, certainly when there such an incredible mountain of facts that call it into question. Again, if ST called SD 'a hodge-podge of JMA/CMA and stuff I learned from books, I don't think anyone would doubt that. But being the 'true' Shaolin, well that's downright funny... and ethically wrong. Insofar as being an MAist - well I'd rather not do CMA than attend a forms factory - but SD is not alone in that particular problem, just the most egregious example.

[Judge Pen]

Just because someone is a doctor, lawyer, or educator, does not mean they are very bright in every aspect of their lives.

I resemble that remark.

[sean_stonehart]

Doh!!!!!!!!!

[BM2]

There have been several points stated that bear merit.
MST, it would be easier to read your posts if you didn't repeat the same views in each of them. I found myself passing over your posts due to repeation. Getting someone to view your opinion differently will not be accomplished through multiple posting of the same opinions. This is something that I am also guilty of doing.
By making constructive criticisms, several forum members of other styles have brought forth opinions shared by myself concerning SD.
While painful to admit, rank advancement seems to be more important then being able to do it correctly. When I read that some schools have black belts with 1.5 years or less in, it screams that something is very wrong.
While I am at it, it used to be that anyone under 16 had a white stripe down the middle of their brown or black belt to illustrate that they were a junior brown or black belt. While they may be able to demostrate all the required material, they were immature for that rank. I don't think that a junior black belt should be able to wear a black gi. To me it cheapns the rank.